| *** falktx has joined #lv2 | 02:10 | |
| *** rncbc has joined #lv2 | 04:03 | |
| *** gianMOD has quit IRC | 04:20 | |
| *** gianMOD has joined #lv2 | 04:20 | |
| *** gianMOD has quit IRC | 04:26 | |
| drobilla | It's a bit annoying in the assumptions it makes about "articles" and "pages", but I've managed to mangle the theme to get something reasonable. The "Documentation" category is a little weird, though. | 04:28 |
|---|---|---|
| * drobilla wonders WTF Harry is running as root | 04:29 | |
| *** gianMOD has joined #lv2 | 04:35 | |
| bgola | drobilla: same problem here, when i run it shows no content at all | 04:38 |
| bgola | drobilla: btw, willing to help, specially with better docs and the plugin wrapper idea. it would be nice if someone could help with a nice design to the web site (not me hehe) :) | 04:45 |
| drobilla | hm. is all the stuff in content/ ? | 04:47 |
| drobilla | should be three .md files in content/, then content/pages/ with another 4 | 04:48 |
| drobilla | bgola: I stole a theme for now that's alright, if ridiculously over-complicated internally | 04:49 |
| drobilla | bgola: try pelican -v | 04:52 |
| drobilla | (i.e. copy that command and stick a -v in there) | 04:53 |
| bgola | ok | 04:53 |
| falktx | drobilla: I want to create a c++ plugin class for lv2 | 04:54 |
| falktx | drobilla: you are looking for one right? | 04:55 |
| bgola | drobilla: http://pastebin.com/DZCKDJPB | 04:55 |
| drobilla | falktx: Yep. | 04:56 |
| drobilla | falktx: I was thinking instead of that template mixing craziness, extensions can just define a class that's their handler, which take features in the constructor. So plugins can just have URIDMapImpl _ids; | 04:58 |
| drobilla | falktx: So extensions have wrappers totally independent of Plugin | 04:59 |
| falktx | hmm good idea | 04:59 |
| drobilla | falktx: As for Plugin, just a straightforward C++ificiation of LV2_Plugin_Descriptor, I don't see much room for movement | 04:59 |
| drobilla | Mixins actually make the code more confusing, IMO. 'what is this function being called?', and any compiler is smart enough to make the performance difference non-existent, they're not virtual methods | 05:01 |
| drobilla | (I'll move the code repo to git soon) | 05:03 |
| drobilla | bgola: huh. s/-v/-D/ | 05:04 |
| drobilla | Stupid Pelican. So much for tidy and easy for people to work with :) | 05:13 |
| bgola | drobilla: it complains about markdown, but i have it installed | 05:16 |
| bgola | http://pastebin.com/VGs53pgX | 05:17 |
| drobilla | bgola: Aha. Rather silly thing to bury in debug output! | 05:19 |
| drobilla | bgola: You need python-markdown perhaps? | 05:20 |
| bgola | drobilla: oh, i had python2-markdown and pelican is running with python3 ... archlinux :p | 05:34 |
| bgola | now i can see the content :) | 05:35 |
| drobilla | bgola: Ah. Good ol' Arch python 3... | 05:40 |
| drobilla | The chief difficulty I see with the site is integrating the generated docs with the site docs. Not sure how | 05:41 |
| bgola | drobilla: you mean the stuff under lv2plug.in/ns ? | 05:50 |
| drobilla | bgola: as well as the doxygen stuff, yeah | 05:55 |
| drobilla | can just not use 'articles' at all and build an explicit menu and only use pages | 05:55 |
| drobilla | (though if people want to write actual articles, we can turn on the blog stuff) | 05:56 |
| bgola | drobilla: hm, maybe leave the generated docs as the api reference and we can write some friendly documentation on the new website. i spoke to harry last year during LAC about it, may be a good moment to do it. i can help with host implementation examples and docs.. some other MOD developers can help with plugin docs for sure | 06:06 |
| drobilla | bgola: Yeah, they will always be generated and intended as "reference". I made the "Information for Developers" page very explicit about this right up front | 06:09 |
| bgola | gianMOD ^ | 06:09 |
| drobilla | If you click 'Documentation' in the top you get a list of articles, though. Maybe I should just ditch that and make a page that does... whatever we want, here | 06:10 |
| bgola | drobilla: yep, that list of articles is not friendly IMO :p | 06:14 |
| gianMOD | sorry to enter like this in the middle of the discussion but, what is the aim of the new lv2 website? | 06:19 |
| gianMOD | make it more appealling to visitors? | 06:20 |
| gianMOD | making documentation understanding easier? | 06:20 |
| gianMOD | make the whole lv2 system more understandable? | 06:21 |
| gianMOD | what is the main goal? | 06:21 |
| drobilla | yes. | 06:22 |
| drobilla | :) | 06:22 |
| gianMOD | we can allocate some hours of our designer to improve visuals | 06:22 |
| gianMOD | but regarding developers oriented stuff I believe what we miss is a way to get "the bigger picture" | 06:23 |
| drobilla | I'm happy enough with the theme, but feel free | 06:24 |
| drobilla | gianMOD: exactly | 06:24 |
| gianMOD | from the MOD experience what I see is that we just grasped the idea after a lot of reading and trial/error | 06:25 |
| gianMOD | but I have difficulty to conceive a way to explain all "in a nutshell" :-) | 06:26 |
| drobilla | Examples are still the best way. That still needs work | 06:29 |
| drobilla | More cross-linking would help | 06:29 |
| gianMOD | I've been talking to comemrcial developers and their biggest turndown is the extensibility of LV2 | 06:30 |
| drobilla | But I think the main purpose of the site is to point people where they need to go in as straightforward a way as possible | 06:30 |
| gianMOD | exactly | 06:30 |
| drobilla | Commercial people love limitations | 06:31 |
| gianMOD | :-) | 06:31 |
| drobilla | They're used to just bitching that MegaCorp doesn't let them do what they want :) | 06:31 |
| gianMOD | so I figure that a good walk-through of the lv2-core specs would be nice | 06:32 |
| drobilla | In this deranged world view, power is actually a bad thing | 06:32 |
| drobilla | Which is ridiculous, but de-emphasizing extensibility to some extent is probably a good thing | 06:32 |
| drobilla | I have already done so, a bit | 06:32 |
| gianMOD | if we make it c lear for developers what thay have by using just the core | 06:33 |
| gianMOD | another thing that might be good is to separate things in scenarios | 06:35 |
| bgola | hm, from a host developer point of view the reference is excellent, but there are so many concepts/technologies (rdf, ttl, extensions, atoms, serd, sord, lilv etc etc etc) it is difficult to start using only the reference | 06:36 |
| drobilla | The reference is pretty good as a reference | 06:36 |
| drobilla | But people need to be steered away from looking there for how to implement something, as much as possible | 06:37 |
| gianMOD | drobilla: are you aware of the discussion about LinuxDSP's decision to drop LV2? | 06:38 |
| drobilla | Though they can be improved to serve that purpose somewhat, I still think that's a problem | 06:38 |
| drobilla | gianMOD: I'm aware of the event. Not sure about discussion | 06:39 |
| gianMOD | well, Mark Start has some points against LV2 | 06:39 |
| drobilla | The final announcement was considerably less full of shit than the drafts I saw :) | 06:39 |
| gianMOD | :-) | 06:40 |
| drobilla | gianMOD: link? | 06:40 |
| gianMOD | email :-( | 06:40 |
| gianMOD | i'll forward you | 06:40 |
| drobilla | t/y | 06:40 |
| gianMOD | check your inbox | 06:42 |
| drobilla | I honestly don't care that much about the specific instance. Mike is a hypocrite | 06:42 |
| drobilla | I do care about eliminating those reasons for others in the future, though | 06:42 |
| gianMOD | he has more than on reason, as I unsderstand | 06:43 |
| gianMOD | some of them comemrcial | 06:43 |
| gianMOD | some of them not | 06:43 |
| gianMOD | one thing I consideraed relevant is the inter-platform issue | 06:44 |
| gianMOD | he wants to have similar code for VST, RTAS Audio Units and so | 06:45 |
| gianMOD | for this reason the lv2-wrapper approach we used in mda-lv2 seems a good one | 06:45 |
| gianMOD | I mean, the MDO fork | 06:46 |
| gianMOD | other point he states and that Tim Goetze also states is the size of Linux commercial market compared to VST and so | 06:47 |
| drobilla | gianMOD: I don't see much in here about LV2 other than the "standard" jab | 06:47 |
| drobilla | (Coming from the guy who proposed to me by far the most compatibility nightmare extension we have ever seen, I might add) | 06:48 |
| gianMOD | :-D | 06:48 |
| drobilla | A VST-ish wrapper is defnitely needed | 06:48 |
| drobilla | We can provide that, without much of the brain-damage, or losing the merits of LV2, I think. | 06:50 |
| gianMOD | I tried to explain to both that Linux shall not be seen as the frontend, but rather as a back end | 06:50 |
| gianMOD | in the case of the MOD, users shall not even be aware that there is a linux inside | 06:51 |
| gianMOD | except if you're a developer | 06:51 |
| gianMOD | and with this argument my point is that, instead of comparing the Deskop Processing scenario, other ones that are appearing, as the MOD, shall be taken into account | 06:53 |
| drobilla | He just doesn't make as much money from "Linux". End of story. | 06:53 |
| gianMOD | yep | 06:53 |
| drobilla | AFAIK all his plugins are just core audio stuff anyway | 06:54 |
| gianMOD | and agian, the thing that I keep repeating as being one of our goals is to provide developers a way of cashing in for their code | 06:54 |
| gianMOD | and the discussion about the website appearance steers completely from the main topic :-D | 06:56 |
| * drobilla is pretty much done with caring about LinuxDSP anyway | 06:57 | |
| drobilla | If there is any useful concrete feedback there, I'd like to hear it, but as far as I can tell, there isn't, so whatever. | 06:59 |
| drobilla | It's an "turns out I don't actually give a shit about you Linux people" announcement, not really about LV2 | 07:00 |
| gianMOD | true | 07:00 |
| gianMOD | but LV2 seems to be the all time favourite scapegoat | 07:02 |
| gianMOD | :-( | 07:02 |
| falktx | the linuxdsp thing is crazy | 07:02 |
| falktx | he started by making lv2s on linux | 07:02 |
| falktx | then slowly built vsts too, then slowly built for win32/osx | 07:03 |
| falktx | now dropped lv2s | 07:03 |
| falktx | sometime soon I guess he'll drop linux | 07:03 |
| rgareus | give him 2 more years and he'll come full circle | 07:04 |
| drobilla | LV2 is an easy scapegoat, especially for those who like bitching in some forum nobody else cares about or private emails or whatever | 07:04 |
| falktx | it irritates me a bit | 07:05 |
| rgareus | someone should register mod-dsp.co.uk for him already :) | 07:05 |
| drobilla | The way to combat that is to expose the benefits, and the community, right up front. i.e. on lv2plug.in | 07:05 |
| falktx | I liked linuxDSP specially for the lv2 plugins. even bought one plugin. errrr :( | 07:05 |
| falktx | *hated | 07:06 |
| falktx | meh | 07:06 |
| drobilla | I see that more widespread support for VST on Linux as a problem that will continue to happen, though | 07:06 |
| falktx | those commercial daws are to blame | 07:07 |
| drobilla | "Oh, I can just do VST? Why should I care about this other thing, then?" | 07:07 |
| drobilla | falktx: yep. | 07:07 |
| falktx | bitwig, energyxt, renoise, tracktion. all support vst but not lv2 | 07:07 |
| drobilla | Which is partly why the host implementation situation needs to be dramatically easier, as well | 07:08 |
| falktx | someone once said to me that lv2 being hard to develop for is a good thing. it keeps the bad devs away... | 07:11 |
| drobilla | heh | 07:12 |
| ax | host integration still isn't super straightforward.. that said, i found apple's audio integration to be way worse [audio units and their core audio stuff] | 07:13 |
| drobilla | Once the libs are in LV2 I'm going to add an lv2apply | 07:13 |
| drobilla | Figure it will clock in at about 500 SLOC | 07:14 |
| drobilla | Better C++ bindings for lilv and friends, and actually using them, and having an example host that does, would be good, but that's lower priority for the moment IMO | 07:15 |
| bgola | the problem is that host integration is difficult and not as appealing as supporting vst or au :/ | 07:15 |
| drobilla | Well, if people continue to write plugins, it will be come more appealing | 07:16 |
| drobilla | The difficult situation definitely needs work though | 07:17 |
| bgola | yep, I can help trying to make it easier | 07:17 |
| bgola | at least with docs | 07:17 |
| drobilla | and it's not actually that difficult. Finding and loading a plugin with lilv is pretty simple | 07:17 |
| bgola | and writing some code/examples | 07:18 |
| drobilla | It's just presented in a really bad way, and spread all over the place | 07:18 |
| bgola | drobilla: yep i agree. lilv is awesome :) | 07:18 |
| drobilla | lilv could be much simpler and have a smaller API, but oh well. | 07:19 |
| bgola | (and btw, serd is incredibly fast when parsing ttl.. i've just changed our python code from rdflib to lilv, wow! hehe :)) | 07:20 |
| ax | not that its a solution to the host problem, in fact, it would probably just delay the issue, but is there a vst plugin that will load lv2? | 07:23 |
| falktx | ax: yes, carla | 07:24 |
| falktx | still beta though | 07:24 |
| * drobilla 's macbook arrives | 07:25 | |
| drobilla | Screw all you guys! I'm moving to AU! :P | 07:25 |
| ax | ha.. | 07:25 |
| drobilla | bgola: rdflib is crazy slow | 07:25 |
| ax | falktx: cool | 07:25 |
| falktx | I have some screenshots of it | 07:26 |
| drobilla | The extensions could probably use a doxygen overhaul to make one pagers like http://drobilla.net/docs/lilv/ | 07:26 |
| falktx | 2nd pic in http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/News/?action=view&url=carla-20-beta3-is-here | 07:27 |
| bgola | drobilla: i tried porting to redland first, slower than rdflib ! | 07:29 |
| drobilla | bgola: oh lord, yeah, don't do that | 07:30 |
| drobilla | bgola: I wrote serd for a reason. That's the one :) | 07:30 |
| drobilla | serd parses ttl pretty much as fast as you can read the text, period | 07:31 |
| drobilla | sord isn't quite as good, though the new tree in svn is better | 07:32 |
| drobilla | I need to merge those two, but that's another story | 07:32 |
| drobilla | bgola: lilv from python, interesting. have your own bindings? | 07:33 |
| bgola | drobilla: nope, using the swig thing. https://github.com/portalmod/mod-ui/blob/lilv-python2/mod/lv2.py | 07:36 |
| drobilla | bgola: ah. Few have really used that to do any real work. Could probably use some work, but good to hear | 07:39 |
| drobilla | (type safe collections in C, sigh) | 07:40 |
| bgola | drobilla: yeah, it has some minor glitches (type inconsistency Node/LilvNode/Lilv::Node for example), but was easy enough | 07:42 |
| drobilla | Better C++ bindings and basing it on them will probably help. I wonder how Python will get along with std::shared_ptr | 08:20 |
| drobilla | I'm tempted to just nuke trac and upload the new site | 08:21 |
| * drobilla attemps to migrate lv2 svn to git | 08:57 | |
| drobilla | Never done this with tags before... | 08:58 |
| *** ricardocrudo has quit IRC | 09:03 | |
| *** ricardocrudo has joined #lv2 | 09:04 | |
| *** falktx has quit IRC | 09:10 | |
| *** drobilla has quit IRC | 09:45 | |
| *** drobilla has joined #lv2 | 09:46 | |
| *** drobilla has quit IRC | 00:57 | |
| *** drobilla has joined #lv2 | 01:23 | |
| *** rncbc has quit IRC | 01:26 | |
| *** drobilla has quit IRC | 01:47 | |
| *** drobilla has joined #lv2 | 02:26 | |
| *** falktx has joined #lv2 | 03:58 | |
| drobilla | Hmm... trying to set up a github mirror, but it needs my pasphrase to push, which won't work in a post-commit hook... | 04:04 |
| *** NickSB2 has quit IRC | 05:27 | |
| drobilla | http://lv2plug.in/ | 05:30 |
| drobilla | Look at me, I've got a fancy Github banner thing like all the cool kids. La de friggin' da. :P | 05:30 |
| *** drobilla has quit IRC | 05:43 | |
| *** drobilla has joined #lv2 | 06:08 | |
| *** zth has joined #lv2 | 08:52 | |
| * drobilla has spent entire too much time dicking around with CSS today | 08:56 | |
| drobilla | Goooooooooood night. | 08:56 |
| drobilla | entirely* | 08:56 |
| *** drobilla has quit IRC | 09:07 | |
| *** edogawa has joined #lv2 | 09:12 | |
| *** falktx has quit IRC | 10:24 | |
| *** zth_studiocomp has joined #lv2 | 10:54 | |
| *** edogawa_ has joined #lv2 | 11:14 | |
| *** edogawa has quit IRC | 11:17 | |
| *** zth_studiocomp has quit IRC | 11:17 | |
| *** zth_studiocomp has joined #lv2 | 11:23 | |
| *** rncbc has joined #lv2 | 11:35 | |
| *** zth_studiocomp has quit IRC | 11:42 | |
| *** rncbc has quit IRC | 11:42 | |
| *** NickSB2 has joined #lv2 | 11:43 | |
| *** edogawa_ is now known as edogawa | 11:54 | |
| *** HarryHaaren has joined #lv2 | 11:55 | |
| *** NickSB2 has quit IRC | 11:57 | |
| *** NickSB2 has joined #lv2 | 11:57 | |
| *** falktx has joined #lv2 | 12:53 | |
| *** edogawa has quit IRC | 13:55 | |
| *** mlpug has joined #lv2 | 14:02 | |
| *** Gegsite has joined #lv2 | 14:10 | |
| Gegsite | hy | 14:11 |
| Gegsite | what could be the problem? Build failed | 14:11 |
| Gegsite | -> task in 'fifths' failed (exit status 1): | 14:11 |
| HarryHaaren | rgareus, ping on if you know how drobilla wants input for the site? ML patches? Git push collaborating somehow? | 14:26 |
| *** Gegsite has quit IRC | 14:27 | |
| rgareus | HarryHaaren: I don't know. | 14:28 |
| HarryHaaren | that's ok, i'll post to list. thanks rgareus | 14:28 |
| rgareus | HarryHaaren: In fact I'd like to know myself :) | 14:29 |
| * HarryHaaren about to post small patch to list, and ask what story is. | 14:30 | |
| HarryHaaren | rgareus, email sent to list.. its nasty with the amount of links. +1 for write-access after a few patches to ML or something | 14:31 |
| rgareus | HarryHaaren: He mentioned that he did set up a dedicated mbox for git-patches | 14:33 |
| rgareus | HarryHaaren: or that he wanted to do that (for pugl & LAD repos). | 14:33 |
| HarryHaaren | rgareus, ah cool. well, lets see | 14:34 |
| HarryHaaren | I'd like to get screenshots of all plugins in there (since in the *users* opinion that's the advantage over LADSPA) | 14:34 |
| HarryHaaren | and we need more bling & snazzy attitude around too.. but so far its already a great step up! | 14:35 |
| rgareus | I think we need much less, actually | 14:37 |
| rgareus | something like http://ffmpeg.org/ (not the best design/colors). | 14:38 |
| rgareus | the front-page is something that project-managers understand, and the 'real information' is easy enough to find (one click away) | 14:39 |
| HarryHaaren | sure, i'll see if I can mockup such a type front page like that for LV2, would be interesting to see what drobilla thinks | 15:01 |
| JohannesG | hey HarryHaaren, just wanted to say thank you. I've been looking into getting into audio plugin programming for a long while, and I have been reading your old blogspot blog lately and it has been extremely informative | 15:43 |
| HarryHaaren | JohannesG, cheers thanks. Please email me at harryhaaren@gmail.com, and i'd be happy to answer questions etc, keep in touch | 15:57 |
| JohannesG | thank you :3 | 16:01 |
| * HarryHaaren back laters | 16:17 | |
| *** HarryHaaren has quit IRC | 16:31 | |
| *** falktx has quit IRC | 16:55 | |
| *** falktx has joined #lv2 | 17:52 | |
| *** mlpug has quit IRC | 18:43 | |
| *** mlpug has joined #lv2 | 19:07 | |
| *** falktx has quit IRC | 19:27 | |
| *** falktx has joined #lv2 | 19:29 | |
| *** rncbc has joined #lv2 | 19:40 | |
| *** zth has quit IRC | 19:53 | |
| *** rncbc has quit IRC | 20:22 | |
| *** mlpug has quit IRC | 20:44 | |
| *** drobilla has joined #lv2 | 21:07 | |
| *** edogawa has joined #lv2 | 21:15 | |
| *** falktx has quit IRC | 21:38 | |
| *** Gegsite has joined #lv2 | 22:01 | |
| *** edogawa has quit IRC | 22:08 | |
| rgareus | drobilla: re Devin's site-size issues: in Firefox press Ctrl+Shift+m (mobile preview mode) | 22:22 |
| *** Gegsite has quit IRC | 22:22 | |
| rgareus | with 320x480 the 'fork me on github' badge ironically hides the "Git" link in the top-menu. | 22:22 |
| rgareus | I was really surprised to see this badge after all the GH shelling. | 22:24 |
| * drobilla shrugs | 22:31 | |
| drobilla | I might remove it, it was just easy | 22:32 |
| drobilla | rgareus: The banner overlaps, but otherwise things work fine and I never have to scroll. | 22:33 |
| rgareus | drobilla: yes. same here. | 22:34 |
| rgareus | drobilla: maybe the default font-size on Devin's phone is also larger | 22:35 |
| * drobilla wonders if he can simplify the directory structure without breaking anything | 22:40 | |
| drobilla | The URI thing is a decent idea but the namespaces suck | 22:41 |
| drobilla | #include "lv2plug.in/ns/worker/worker.h" would be a biiiit better | 22:41 |
| drobilla | But I probably should have just claimed "lv2" as the official LV2 prefix, period, and #include "lv2/worker/worker.h" | 22:42 |
| * drobilla plays the artist and tries to make the SVG logo 'inset' | 23:52 | |
| drobilla | eeeeeeeeehh good enough | 23:52 |
| drobilla | I really dislike that "2", though | 23:53 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.13.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!