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| HarryHaaren | ok, I'll keep an eye on there then, and if there's something hackable i see, i'll give it a shot / pull-request | 16:15 |
|---|---|---|
| drobilla | I don't think the site is the sole problem, but it's a big part of it | 16:15 |
| drobilla | The biggest problem in general is what happens when people say "how the hell do I write an LV2 plugin/host?" | 16:16 |
| HarryHaaren | sure. Fancy graphics always help :D | 16:17 |
| drobilla | They look and find a bunch of strange detailed information that doesn't answer their question, and typically just give up there | 16:17 |
| drobilla | On the plugin side, I think lack of a good standard C++ template plugin is probably a significant part of it | 16:19 |
| drobilla | Host, same deal, which jalv serves, but is at drobilla.net and depends on a bunch of libraries which are as well | 16:19 |
| rgareus | right. we should first prepare the "code" part before moving on to the site representation | 16:21 |
| rgareus | some easy to download "all in one" libs+headers + template | 16:21 |
| drobilla | But anything that makes LV2 itself something contributed to would help | 16:22 |
| rgareus | lots of stuff is already there eg-sampler is not bad. | 16:22 |
| drobilla | I love what the community builds with it (for the most part), but on that part, I'm alone and almost totally unsupported | 16:23 |
| drobilla | Which is fine, but I really suck at a lot of this stuff, being part of the problem :) | 16:24 |
| rgareus | as I see it it's mostly some re-organizing of exiting stuff and a nice easy to use [visual] wrapper. plus a good OOTB experience. | 16:24 |
| drobilla | rgareus: True | 16:24 |
| rgareus | easier said than done though | 16:24 |
| drobilla | So back to that basic technical question, is there even a point in keeping lilv and friends in a separate repo if they end up in the tarball anyway? | 16:25 |
| drobilla | (I doubt I can do so and preserve revision history in any case, but oh well) | 16:27 |
| rgareus | drobilla: I don't care. The only difference there is your convenience. | 16:27 |
| rgareus | drobilla: I suppose it'll be a script of some kind. | 16:28 |
| drobilla | rgareus: No submodules is a lot more convenient than submodules | 16:28 |
| rgareus | either commit-hooks or some roll-the-tarball script | 16:28 |
| drobilla | Well, I'm skeptical of my instinct to keep things separate, since that's sort of the problem | 16:29 |
| drobilla | I can't think of any particularly good tangible reason to not just cram it all in the same tree and be done with it | 16:30 |
| rgareus | drobilla: AFAICT the decision there is a technical one: how much do the APIs depend on each other? | 16:31 |
| drobilla | Packagers will not be fans of this, no doubt. Version of lv2 != actual dependencies of programs | 16:31 |
| drobilla | rgareus: They don't. | 16:32 |
| rgareus | can I mix lilv version X with serd verion Y and sord version Z ? if yes -> separate repos. if no -> one big repo | 16:32 |
| drobilla | Depends if Y is compatible or not according to the usual rules | 16:33 |
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| drobilla | Most convenient would be to just have to depend on lv2-x.y.z and be done with it | 16:35 |
| rgareus | instead of one big repo, submodules are an option. but that's mostly taste / maintainer preferences. | 16:35 |
| drobilla | Put all the headers in PRPEFIX/include/lv2-x.y.z | 16:35 |
| drobilla | Though that's also something not currently done due to the "specness" of the thing | 16:36 |
| drobilla | rgareus: Well, all the separate projects are a headache for me anyway | 16:37 |
| drobilla | Radical simplification is probably the medicine in order, here | 16:37 |
| rgareus | drobilla: one big repo it is. | 16:37 |
| drobilla | rgareus: Suppose so. | 16:38 |
| drobilla | I can/will continue to maintain the actual library versions correctly as good general practice | 16:39 |
| rgareus | drobilla: I dare say you keep the source subdirs anyway. so that's fine for packagers too. | 16:39 |
| drobilla | Though parallel installs get a bit weird | 16:39 |
| drobilla | Yeah, I don't know. ideally pkg-config for lilv and pkg-config for the appropriate LV2 with lilv inside will both work | 16:41 |
| rgareus | drobilla: add a meta .pc that depends on all the other ones | 16:41 |
| drobilla | The real trouble here is that libraries potentially break more | 16:42 |
| drobilla | rgareus: I suppose that works. | 16:42 |
| rgareus | "lv2-host-stack version X.Y.Z" depends on lv2 >= A.B.C liblilv >= D.E.F etc | 16:45 |
| drobilla | lv2-everything.pc or something | 16:45 |
| rgareus | samefor "lv2-plugin-stack" | 16:45 |
| drobilla | better | 16:46 |
| rgareus | well, yeah naming is going to be a problem :) | 16:46 |
| drobilla | Perhaps I should put them in the same repo but otherwise have installation remain exactly as it is | 16:47 |
| rgareus | and if lvtk becomes part of the family "lv2-c++-plugin-stack" give or take some letters | 16:48 |
| drobilla | Well, the host one would be nice. Plugins currently have no use for one anyway | 16:48 |
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| rgareus | drobilla: on a different, but related note: can we amend the lv2 specs regarding plugin architecture? i386/x86_64/arm/armel etc? | 17:06 |
| rgareus | so far the spec says /usr/lib/lv2/ for everything regardless | 17:07 |
| drobilla | rgareus: Far as I can tell there is no universal standard | 17:07 |
| rgareus | osx is easy (multi-arch binaries). windows, too %PROGRAMFILES%\LV2 vs %PROGRAMFILES64%\LV2 | 17:09 |
| rgareus | on linux we have two options. some library suffix plugin.i386.so plugin.x86_64.so or arch-triples | 17:10 |
| rgareus | the latter makes more sense IMHO. | 17:11 |
| rgareus | well maybe just saying $libdir/lv2 is good | 17:12 |
| rgareus | on debian/ubuntu etc $libdir = /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/ or whatever and fedora will be happy with $libdir too | 17:13 |
| drobilla | Every host is never going to add the code to find the right name, and it'd all be slightly different and broken even if they did | 17:13 |
| rgareus | the only problem there are binary hosts (which don't know what libdir is) | 17:14 |
| drobilla | Well, hosts look in LV2_PATH. Petty much end of story. | 17:15 |
| drobilla | Where the plugins should be installed is under-specified, but it's different between distros, so I don't see what we can do | 17:15 |
| rgareus | if the host (or rather liblilv) is compiled by the distro, then there's no problem (give or take packager's mistakes). | 17:16 |
| rgareus | but if say Bitwig comes a binary with liblilv inside then it'd need different paths | 17:17 |
| rgareus | for Fedora and debian and ... | 17:18 |
| drobilla | That's what LV2_PATH | 17:18 |
| drobilla | If the user's LV2_PATH is wrong, you're screwed. | 17:19 |
| drobilla | They're certainly not going to be building if (debian) checks into run-time code | 17:20 |
| rgareus | so long story short. we need to communicate to liblilv packagers to add some /etc/profile.d/lilv which sets the LV2PATH | 17:20 |
| drobilla | or just set the default correctly | 17:23 |
| rgareus | and even then. the user may not have liblilv insttaled but gets just uses some *binary commercial LV2 host with static liblilv*.. | 17:24 |
| drobilla | I learned about the lack of consistency here by trying to implement that, as it happens | 17:24 |
| drobilla | maybe a if (exists(PREFIX/lib64)) print("WARNING: blah blah") | 17:25 |
| rgareus | who's gonna read printf()s ? | 17:26 |
| drobilla | Well, more than who will read one that isn't there | 17:27 |
| drobilla | I don't see anything more to do | 17:27 |
| drobilla | Yeah, it sucks. | 17:27 |
| rgareus | hosts could implement a "specify LV2 Path in preferences" | 17:28 |
| rgareus | but chaging it a runtime is a bit of a problem. | 17:29 |
| drobilla | Hm. Perhaps plugins should check LV2_PATH at compile time and find the lib under PREFIX, if present, to know where to install | 17:31 |
| drobilla | Good luck expecting Makefiles to do that, though | 17:32 |
| * rgareus asks pianoteq.com for the source to compile with proper LV2_PATH :D | 17:34 | |
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| drobilla | Markdown page: http://drobilla.net/files/lv2_pelican.png | 22:25 |
| drobilla | I'm sold. We've got waay more people around here who'd rather edit a plain text file in git than dick around with a wiki | 22:27 |
| drobilla | (spending time writing documentation nobody actually needs! yay!) | 22:35 |
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| drobilla | I think I might only preserve post-unification tags | 21:40 |
| drobilla | The old independent extension releases are all weird and not really 'tags' in the git sense | 21:40 |
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| drobilla | pugl git doesn't build on OSX | 23:07 |
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