Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.)

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To: <linux-audio-user@...>
Date: Saturday, December 29, 2012 - 11:23 pm

On 12/29/2012 09:55 PM, Len Ovens wrote:

...
> but then the whole PA is set to his voice as he likes it.

problem identified :) solving it is beyond the realm of the technical
and may necessitate the use of blunt instruments.

> - vocal two, female, handheld, sm58. even though the PA is set with

boosting is usually the wrong approach for pa filtering (unless you
really know what you are doing). try to attack the boxiness instead (for
me, the term "boxy" pretty much means 800 hz give or take a third).

> - vocal three, female, classic trained.. hardly needs a mic at all but

still - it's nice to have a decent mike on a good voice, where it will
make a difference.

> - piano and guitar get the midrange sucked right out of them

will be solved by the blunt instrument mentioned above. at the risk of
sounding like a teacher: try to avoid thinking in such imprecise terms.
your analysis seems to imply that the midrange needs boosting.

from what you described above, it's evident that the midrange is ok (the
room even has a tendency to boxiness), it's just that the smilie-shaped
main eq will over-emphasize bass and treble. so the way to tackle that
is _not_ to boost the mid-range, but to correct the crooked curve on the pa.

i honestly don't know why a 30-band eq lets you boost stuff. 99% of
users would be much better off having an eq that only provides attenuation.

> - Bass (thats me) no PA, (not by choice, but what's practical) Amp eq not

makes sense, unless you have a little headroom on the pa and a guy at
the controls during the show, in which case it's nice to reduce the amp
volume a bit and give him/her a few dbs of actually working with the
bass (for me, even as little as 3db SPL raise over the amp sound gives
me a lot of freedom to shape the sound). plus for the house sound, heavy
compression on the bass is often useful, and bass players are naturally
reluctant to use it (and they shouldn't, because playing into heavy
compression leads to sloppy technique, so keep the amp unsquashed).
when i have to amplify the kick drum, i will put the bass on the pa as
well. with small speakers, it's very difficult to create a kick drum
that doesn't sound like a cardboard box thrown out of a window, but if
the bass locks tightly, the combined sound can be quite impressive. to
balance that, i need both instruments on the pa.

when i work with bass players in small venues (where most of the house
sound is from the amp), i let them set up their preferred tone, and then
if the amp has a good eq, i will approach them during the soundcheck to
correct house sound problems directly at the amp (again, attenuation
only). often, it's just a few frets on a particular string that are
playing up.

> It sounds from what has been said, that an omni mic would help vocal two

honestly, an omni mike won't help you. fons does have a point in saying
that omni mikes have some advantages and could be put to good use
outside the realm of classical recording, but until someone sorts out
your lead singer problem, that's academic :)
get yourselves a sound guy to run your show who is thick-skinned enough
to tell the bossman go pee, wait for the audience remarks about how good
the sound was for a change to sink in, and then after one or two shows,
you have yourselves a reference sound which you can try to recreate even
without a sound guy at the controls.

> The lead vocal likes the

get a mixer with two semi-parametric mids, problem solved. very decent
ones are available nowadays at very low cost. a year ago, i got the club
i work for to invest in a new board (an a&h gl 2800 for about 3k euros
plus taxes, which is really negligible for a professional venue), and
the musicians have been more than happy with it. a board with that
feature set and sound quality would have been high in the five digits 15
years ago. nowadays, there's really no need (and no excuse) to work with
inadequate mixers if you're serious about your music.

> For vocal three, anything has to sound better. She gets

an omni has absolutely no advantage there. your singers will want to
work on their microphone technique and exploit the near-field effect in
a musical way.

> When I was in broadcast(80 to 85), the ENG guys had sennheiser shotguns.

shotguns are not useful for music stages. they do have better side
rejection in theory, but at the cost of a very irregular off-axis
response. the few times i used shotguns in the theatre, i found they
would give me even less gain before feedback than a standard
supercardioid, and required insane filtering.

--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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[LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., John Murphy, (Sat Dec 22, 2:58 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 1:57 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., John Murphy, (Sun Dec 23, 2:50 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 5:42 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 3:43 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sat Dec 22, 5:19 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 5:39 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., John Murphy, (Sat Dec 22, 8:26 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sat Dec 22, 9:00 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 9:16 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sun Dec 23, 3:21 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 5:54 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Paul Davis, (Sat Dec 22, 5:44 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 6:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 1:53 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 23, 11:33 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 5:39 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Mon Dec 24, 2:43 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Mon Dec 24, 8:59 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ricardus Vincente, (Mon Dec 24, 3:13 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Mon Dec 24, 10:22 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Mon Dec 24, 11:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ricardus Vincente, (Mon Dec 24, 11:31 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Tue Dec 25, 1:34 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Dec 25, 11:47 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 3:20 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Brent Busby, (Mon Dec 24, 4:46 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Mon Dec 24, 9:12 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Florian Paul Schmidt, (Mon Dec 24, 9:45 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 12:36 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Jeremy Jongepier, (Tue Dec 25, 1:24 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Florian Paul Schmidt, (Tue Dec 25, 1:42 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Fri Dec 28, 2:35 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Florian Paul Schmidt, (Fri Dec 28, 10:31 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Fri Dec 28, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Sat Dec 29, 6:22 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Arnold Krille, (Sat Dec 29, 9:18 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Florian Paul Schmidt, (Sat Dec 29, 8:54 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Sat Dec 29, 11:36 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Sun Dec 30, 12:08 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 30, 2:12 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sat Dec 29, 6:30 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Cannam, (Fri Dec 28, 4:52 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Folderol, (Fri Dec 28, 5:31 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Cannam, (Fri Dec 28, 11:06 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Fri Dec 28, 10:51 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Sat Dec 29, 2:03 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sat Dec 29, 11:27 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Sat Dec 29, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Raffaele Morelli, (Fri Dec 28, 11:12 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 2:39 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Fri Dec 28, 3:10 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 28, 6:25 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Jeremy Jongepier, (Fri Dec 28, 1:29 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 28, 2:53 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Fri Dec 28, 7:13 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Thu Dec 27, 3:10 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Dec 27, 5:20 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Thu Dec 27, 11:31 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 5:25 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Thu Dec 27, 10:37 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Dec 31, 2:28 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Mon Dec 31, 8:15 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Charles Henry, (Mon Dec 31, 8:57 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Wed Jan 2, 8:35 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Mon Dec 31, 9:17 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Charles Henry, (Mon Dec 31, 9:39 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Tim E. Real, (Mon Dec 31, 10:44 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Tue Jan 1, 5:23 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Tue Jan 1, 6:37 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Tue Jan 1, 7:20 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Wed Jan 2, 12:26 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Tim E. Real, (Wed Jan 2, 8:14 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Wed Jan 2, 8:23 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Tue Jan 8, 2:30 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Folderol, (Mon Dec 31, 10:02 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Wed Jan 2, 8:43 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Fri Dec 28, 2:38 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Thu Dec 27, 11:22 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Fri Dec 28, 4:41 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Thu Dec 27, 11:24 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Thu Dec 27, 11:14 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Neil, (Thu Dec 27, 11:23 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Thu Dec 27, 11:47 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Fri Dec 28, 12:22 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 28, 5:30 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Fri Dec 28, 12:18 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sat Dec 29, 2:38 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sat Dec 29, 11:13 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sat Dec 29, 2:48 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sat Dec 29, 7:54 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Sun Dec 30, 4:19 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 30, 4:53 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Len Ovens, (Sun Dec 30, 4:57 pm)
[LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Len Ovens, (Sat Dec 29, 8:56 pm)
Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Marius Janßen, (Sat Dec 29, 11:26 pm)
Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Roger, (Sun Dec 30, 9:35 am)
Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 30, 10:48 am)
Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Sat Dec 29, 11:23 pm)
Re: [LAU] Live mic and monitoring (was rant.), Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 30, 10:43 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sat Dec 29, 2:55 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Bob van der Poel, (Sat Dec 29, 3:07 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Brett McCoy, (Thu Dec 27, 11:36 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Dec 27, 11:07 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Al Thompson, (Wed Dec 26, 5:51 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Mon Dec 24, 7:17 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Brent Busby, (Mon Dec 24, 4:38 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 1:57 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Jeremy Jongepier, (Tue Dec 25, 1:33 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 2:27 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Tue Dec 25, 2:11 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Mon Dec 24, 5:08 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 2:27 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., SxDx, (Mon Dec 24, 3:25 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 1:27 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 3:40 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ricardus Vincente, (Mon Dec 24, 4:33 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Paul Davis, (Mon Dec 24, 3:46 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 4:37 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Mon Dec 24, 5:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 4:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Mon Dec 24, 3:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Paul Davis, (Mon Dec 24, 2:48 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 1:10 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Mon Dec 24, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., SxDx, (Mon Dec 24, 8:58 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Mon Dec 24, 3:14 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ricardus Vincente, (Mon Dec 24, 3:23 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 23, 10:45 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 5:30 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 23, 9:35 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Dec 23, 10:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 23, 10:17 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Sun Dec 23, 10:32 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Sun Dec 23, 10:17 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Joe Hartley, (Sun Dec 23, 6:07 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 23, 9:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Sun Dec 23, 7:48 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Dec 23, 10:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Chris Bannister, (Mon Dec 24, 3:20 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Dec 24, 1:55 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 12:53 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Thu Dec 27, 1:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Thu Dec 27, 3:17 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Gene Heskett, (Mon Dec 24, 4:13 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Mon Dec 24, 3:47 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Mon Dec 24, 3:49 am)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Monty Montgomery, (Sun Dec 23, 10:01 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Paul Davis, (Sat Dec 22, 9:53 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 10:05 pm)
Re: [LAU] Pro Audio? OT rant., Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 22, 7:10 pm)