Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins

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Date: Monday, February 28, 2011 - 8:51 pm

(split from: RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb)

On 02/26/2011 11:35 PM, David Robillard wrote:

> At this very instant, on a particular device, browser might not be up to

> The ultra-portability is a really lucrative feature. Being able to

I tend to believe that, generally, what is supposed to work in all cases doesn't
work well in specific cases. It may do the job somehow, but it's not really
adapted. And if this results in poor acceptance, then your investment is lost.

Portability is good, but if you go too far with it, you lose a lot of API and/or
platform specific features and optimizations.

Also, I don't see what's so easy with browsers. I've done web development for
years, and compatibility problems are the rule.

> Just want the UI on the same machine? Do the same in your browser.

I don't see why this is so crucial for plugins.

It's true that browsers are evolving fast, but right now you can't even get a
VU-meter to update fast enough in a portable manner. Browsers are not adapted to
such things as live frequency curves and other powerful audio UIs.

> I understand your priorities might be slightly different, since you're

I don't think it's a matter of priorities here. We have different opinions on
what plugin UIs could be on mobile devices.

Actually, on current mobile platforms, when one wants a portable UI, there is an
alternative to Web UIs: OpenGL. This runs everywhere, and as smoothly as can be.
All you need is the plugin to expose draw() and mouse motion functions.

Using such functions glScissor(), it would even be possible to embed a plugin UI
in a host UI while making sure that it doesn't draw out of its bounds.

A toolkit on top of OpenGL may often be useful especially for drawing texts and
widgets. For example, there is Clutter: http://www.clutter-project.org/

But this is no constraint, every plugin would be free to use the toolkit of its
choice internally when rendering within its draw() function.

There are subtleties though. For example on Android, there are so-called screen
densities, theoretically ranging from 120dpi to 320dpi according to the device.

But that's easily solved with OpenGL, the host can scale the displayed plugins
if needed. The plugins do not need to know what the ratio between a point and a
pixel is.

And if there existed some specialized toolkit for audio UI development, and even
a UI builder in the lines of JUCE's Jucer, then creating portable and
high-performance plugin UIs would become very easy.

That said, I have also investigated other solutions for simple portable plugin
UIs, but I think that OpenGL is worth considering.

>>> I just dropped explicit LADSPA support from Ingen in favour of NASPRO.

Hmm.. Does the current bridge rely on LADSPA rdf files to be present? If so then
I would say that it doesn't really provide backward compatibility from LV2 to
LADSPA. AFAIK, ladspa.h is the specification, and I would hope that the bridge
is able to detect and load any plugin which follow this specification.

> Porting is, of course, even better. A tool that uses slv2 and

In the Android case, this is entirely possible yes, during the APK packaging phase.

--
Olivier
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Messages in current thread:
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Sat Feb 26, 10:37 am)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 7:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 7:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 7:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 8:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 8:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Feb 25, 8:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 11, 11:08 am)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 18, 5:06 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 18, 11:44 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Thu Mar 24, 10:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sun Mar 27, 4:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 11, 6:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 4:33 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 6:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 6:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Mon Feb 28, 4:24 pm)
[LAD] Lightweight LV2 implementation (Was: RDF libraries), David Robillard, (Thu Sep 29, 5:48 am)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 5:28 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 6:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Giuseppe Zompatori, (Sun Feb 27, 4:04 am)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Giuseppe Zompatori, (Sun Feb 27, 12:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] Audio effects on Android, Olivier Guilyardi, (Mon Feb 28, 5:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] Audio effects on Android, Stefano D'Angelo, (Tue Mar 1, 12:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] Audio effects on Android, Olivier Guilyardi, (Tue Mar 1, 4:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] Audio effects on Android, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 7:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 7:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] RDF libraries, was Re: [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution R..., Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Feb 26, 6:44 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Mon Feb 28, 8:51 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Tue Mar 1, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Tue Mar 1, 6:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Tue Mar 1, 11:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 1:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 5:34 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 6:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 7:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 7:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 9:27 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 10:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 9:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 10:44 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 10:00 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 11:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 11:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Fons Adriaensen, (Wed Mar 2, 10:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Thu Mar 3, 10:36 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Thu Mar 3, 12:39 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Mar 3, 1:27 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Fri Mar 4, 12:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Fri Mar 4, 7:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Pedro Alves, (Fri Mar 4, 9:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Sat Mar 5, 12:05 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Fri Mar 4, 10:00 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Pedro Alves, (Fri Mar 4, 10:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Sat Mar 5, 12:07 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 4, 2:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Fri Mar 4, 7:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Sat Mar 5, 12:10 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Fri Mar 4, 2:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 4, 3:00 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Fons Adriaensen, (Fri Mar 4, 2:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Fri Mar 4, 2:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 11:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Mar 3, 12:03 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, gene heskett, (Thu Mar 3, 2:33 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Mar 3, 11:15 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, gene heskett, (Fri Mar 4, 3:06 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 10:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 8:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 10:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Thu Mar 3, 12:06 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 10:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 11:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 9:38 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Giblock, (Wed Mar 2, 10:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 10:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Giblock, (Wed Mar 2, 11:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Thu Mar 3, 12:27 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Thu Mar 3, 10:05 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Fri Mar 4, 12:06 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 4, 12:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Fri Mar 4, 7:28 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 11:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Wed Mar 2, 11:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Chris Cannam, (Wed Mar 2, 8:44 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 8:47 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 1:27 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 2:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Wed Mar 2, 2:30 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Fri Mar 11, 11:03 am)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 4:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 5:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Paul Davis, (Wed Mar 2, 5:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 7:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 6:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Wed Mar 2, 3:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Wed Mar 2, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Tue Mar 1, 1:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Tue Mar 1, 3:47 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Mon Feb 28, 9:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Olivier Guilyardi, (Tue Mar 1, 5:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Tue Mar 1, 5:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, Stefano D'Angelo, (Tue Mar 1, 6:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Tue Mar 1, 10:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins, David Robillard, (Tue Mar 1, 12:02 am)