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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable> X11 hides the hardware and allows the app to be independent of it=2C just=
as do
Actually yes=2C I am suggesting you don't use Jack or Sockets if you want y=
our app to be
well written and portable.
Now=2C what has this really got to do with hardware? You design an app=2C i=
t interfaces to some
libraries - you talk about hardware abstraction but all the library does is=
give you access
to some features you want. Applications which rely on X to 'distribute' the=
mselves are now
totally dependent on the underlying library for that feature because they h=
ave no other
inherent method of doing it. They are totally dependent.
This is not abstracting any function=2C you have just moved your dependency=
from specific
hardware to specific software because you now need _that_ set of libraries =
to work. You
talk about badly written applications but with respect to distribution mode=
ls=2C if your app
was not architected to support a feature then it was 'badly written' if you=
consider that
feature to be useful. Back to bristol - the engine implements its DSP code =
because I=20
considered that to be a base requirement of the product=2C but it also abst=
racts itself to
support a distributed mode because I also consider that to be a base requir=
ement. I did
not rely on X11 to provide this feature for me just as I did not rely on an=
y DSP ASIC or
specific soundcard to provide my audio interface.
> And how does Bristol run remotely but with a local display if not by eith=
er
You are getting off the point here which was the dependency on X11 but I am=
really
honoured that you want to know so much about my software=2C I truly never r=
ealised
you were such a fan. I only mentioned it because it highlights that fact th=
at you don't
need X to distribute an app but Fons=2C I would be happy to start another t=
hread if you
are that interested in blowing smoke where it isn't supposed to go and suff=
ice to say
bristol does not rely on any archaic windowing systems.
> You're mixing up thing here. Most systems do indeed disable direct connec=
tions
No=2C Fons=2C you are mixing things up. Most systems do not even run X serv=
ers. Most=20
systems don't even run *nix.
Only a very tiny minority are still lumbered with this aged piece of code c=
alled X. In
my previous post I said that a majority of these systems were not using X i=
n a distributed
fashion because it is either disabled=2C not available (firewalled) or plai=
n uninteresting and=20
I stand by that statement - a few users have replied that they use this fea=
ture and that
speaks for itself=2C either a few users of a low volume interest list use t=
he feature or a whole
load of people use the list and don't use the feature.
Now I like X11 but again I am not going to be a fanboy since that smells a =
lot like every
Apple advocate who is blind to the limitations of their beloved products.
> > > If 'a generation of users' is any reference=2C we should just forget =
about
So here I agree with Paul - something like wayland is what we will all be o=
n in a few
years.
If you are relying on features of X for anything that you consider to be us=
eful in your
apps then you are likely to need some very fundamental changes to what is l=
ikely to be
the next way of interfacing with your hardware. Now you did ask about model=
s to distribute
processing and asked me to quote them: go google it=2C there are already pl=
enty of
very good models out there and they are being used. If you application is '=
badly written'
as you put it=2C relying on a given interface for a potentially critical fe=
ature then it
is going to have problems migrating. It has nothing to do with libraries th=
at use X
window Id in their specification=2C nor apps that work or not with X over S=
SH. As you well
know=2C if you did not consider a given requirement before the fact then yo=
u are going to
have problems implementing it after the ract=2C and offloading a feature on=
to the X11=20
libraries because as a fan boy you like the way it abstracts hardware means=
you are likely=20
to be in for a world of hurt later. At least you do have a few years to put=
it straight but you
do need to drop the benefits of the -X switch.
Regards=2C nick.
"we have to make sure the old choice [Windows] doesn't disappear=94.
Jim Wong=2C president of IT products=2C Acer
=
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>=3B X11 hides the hardware and allows the app to be independent of it=2C=
just as do>=3B Jack for audio=2C sockets for networking=2C etc. Do y=
ou suggest that I should not>=3B use Jack or sockets because e.g. Win=
dows doesn't have them (natively) ?Actually yes=2C I am suggesting =
you don't use Jack or Sockets if you want your app to bewell written an=
d portable.Now=2C what has this really got to do with hardware? You=
design an app=2C it interfaces to somelibraries - you talk about hardw=
are abstraction but all the library does is give you accessto some feat=
ures you want. Applications which rely on X to 'distribute' themselves are =
nowtotally dependent on the underlying library for that feature because=
they have no otherinherent method of doing it. They are totally depend=
ent.This is not abstracting any function=2C you have just moved you=
r dependency from specifichardware to specific software because you now=
need _that_ set of libraries to work. Youtalk about badly written appl=
ications but with respect to distribution models=2C if your appwas not =
architected to support a feature then it was 'badly written' if you conside=
r thatfeature to be useful. Back to bristol - the engine implements its=
DSP code because I considered that to be a base requirement of the pro=
duct=2C but it also abstracts itself tosupport a distributed mode becau=
se I also consider that to be a base requirement. I didnot rely on X11 =
to provide this feature for me just as I did not rely on any DSP ASIC orspecific soundcard to provide my audio interface.>=3B And how do=
es Bristol run remotely but with a local display if not by either>=3B=
X forwarding=2C or having some ad-hoc code to split the app into two parts=
?>=3B The latter has to be redone for each and every application=2C =
if you ever>=3B want to use it remotely.You are getting off t=
he point here which was the dependency on X11 but I am reallyhonoured t=
hat you want to know so much about my software=2C I truly never realisedyou were such a fan. I only mentioned it because it highlights that fact t=
hat you don'tneed X to distribute an app but Fons=2C I would be happy t=
o start another thread if youare that interested in blowing smoke where=
it isn't supposed to go and suffice to saybristol does not rely on any=
archaic windowing systems.>=3B You're mixing up thing here. Most=
systems do indeed disable direct connections>=3B to the X server (fo=
r good reasons) and expect you to use ssh -X insteadNo=2C Fons=2C y=
ou are mixing things up. Most systems do not even run X servers. Most s=
ystems don't even run *nix.Only a very tiny minority are still lumb=
ered with this aged piece of code called X. Inmy previous post I said t=
hat a majority of these systems were not using X in a distributedfashio=
n because it is either disabled=2C not available (firewalled) or plain unin=
teresting and I stand by that statement - a few users have replied that=
they use this feature and thatspeaks for itself=2C either a few users =
of a low volume interest list use the feature or a wholeload of people =
use the list and don't use the feature.Now I like X11 but again I a=
m not going to be a fanboy since that smells a lot like everyApple advo=
cate who is blind to the limitations of their beloved products.>=
=3B >=3B >=3B If 'a generation of users' is any reference=2C we should =
just forget about>=3B >=3B >=3B Linux=2C switch to Windows and ca=
ll it a day. We should also eat only fast>=3B >=3B >=3B food=2C b=
elieve everything the TV news and ads tell us=2C hate strangers and>=
=3B >=3B >=3B homosexuals=2C and generally be ignorant about everything=
. There's probably>=3B >=3B >=3B no argument more irrelevant than=
this sort of populist ones.So here I agree with Paul - something l=
ike wayland is what we will all be on in a fewyears.If you are =
relying on features of X for anything that you consider to be useful in you=
rapps then you are likely to need some very fundamental changes to what=
is likely to bethe next way of interfacing with your hardware. Now you=
did ask about models to distributeprocessing and asked me to quote the=
m: go google it=2C there are already plenty ofvery good models out ther=
e and they are being used. If you application is 'badly written'as you =
put it=2C relying on a given interface for a potentially critical feature t=
hen itis going to have problems migrating. It has nothing to do with li=
braries that use Xwindow Id in their specification=2C nor apps that wor=
k or not with X over SSH. As you wellknow=2C if you did not consider a =
given requirement before the fact then you are going tohave problems im=
plementing it after the ract=2C and offloading a feature onto the X11 l=
ibraries because as a fan boy you like the way it abstracts hardware means =
you are likely to be in for a world of hurt later. At least you do have=
a few years to put it straight but youdo need to drop the benefits of =
the -X switch.Regards=2C nick."we have to make sure the=
old choice [Windows] doesn't disappear=94.Jim Wong=2C president of IT =
products=2C Acer
=
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