Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb

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To: <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Monday, February 21, 2011 - 10:41 pm

On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 20:27 +0000, Rui Nuno Capela wrote:

[...]

I said the LV2 UI extension is toolkit agnostic. It is - i.e. it
supports any toolkit.

I did not say all particular LV2 UIs are toolkit agnostic. They are
not. Many are implemented in Gtk, for example. This, however, is not
the problem (as we both agree, i.e. UI authors should be free to do so).

> if you look closer most of those ill-behaved lv2 gtk plugins, the ones i

Well, sure, but you can't say that not having LV2 UIs whatsoever would
be a good thing with a straight face. Nobody's claiming everything has
been done perfectly. I will, however, claim that the freedom for
developers to do their thing does result in real, actual, innovation,
and improvements in the 'LAD platform' that would not occur otherwise,
and history backs me up. That developers can do their proof of concept
implementations is certainly not a bad thing! It's a very, very good
thing, that has been shown to work.

Of course, this freedom comes at a cost, no argument there. We do
indeed need to revise how those proof of concepts were done (with the
benefit of the experience gained) from time to time. Sure beats not
being able to...

That's the cost - the reward is higher quality software (eventually),
more features, and all the well-known wins that come with
distributed/agile software development. Particularly in an open source
world, it's IMO a very wise trade-off.

Anyway, back to practical matters:

> i'm not, and never was, against plugin developers doing their guis with

I fully agree, which is why I just described my proposed solution to the
problem. Again, I don't tend to discuss such things on-list much (the
pointless direction of this discussion being evidence as to why), but
developers need to know a particular technology is not a
wise /long-term/ investment to make the best decisions, and the issue
came up, so...

> , is a

Well, no, because that extension threw out the baby with the bathwater,
and while it solved a pragmatic part of the problem in the short-term,
it made the serious long-term problem here (API) even worse in some
sense.

The problem is not how plugin authors have been doing their GUIs at all.
They have been, can, and still should, be implementing them in their
toolkit of choice, such as Gtk. The problem is that it was not
implemented correctly on the host side of things, and instead of solving
this problem once correctly and collectively (library), the external UI
extension kludge screwed up the UI API instead, put the solution in the
wrong place, forced that solution to be constantly re-implemented, and
further fragmented the community. Long term problem => alarm bells =>
fix needed.

Note that the problem here is not the LV2 UI extension, which will not
have to change(*). That it may be the pragmatic choice for plugin UI
authors right now does not change the fact that the external UI
extension was (objectively and without malice) the design screw-up here.
Fair enough, the ability to try and screw it up is a part of that
freedom. I've certainly screwed up my fair share as well. Live and
learn... and revise :)

-dr

(* Which, by the way, is a real-life example of the LV2 extension way of
things working)

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Messages in current thread:
[LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Tom Szilagyi, (Thu Jan 13, 6:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Tom Szilagyi, (Fri Jan 14, 8:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 9, 4:51 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Chris Cannam, (Wed Feb 23, 8:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 10:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 11:47 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Thu Feb 24, 1:00 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Coccoli, (Thu Feb 10, 5:54 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Mon Feb 21, 7:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Wed Feb 9, 7:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Mon Feb 21, 7:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jeremy Salwen, (Tue Feb 22, 4:53 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 6:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Stefano D'Angelo, (Tue Feb 22, 6:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 8:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 10:20 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 4:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Tue Feb 22, 10:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 9:52 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Wed Feb 23, 11:00 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 1:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Wed Feb 23, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 4:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Gordon JC Pearce, (Wed Feb 23, 10:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Thu Feb 24, 12:55 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 12:23 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 12:11 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Gordon JC Pearce, (Thu Feb 24, 12:33 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 12:39 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 12:42 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 11:43 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Thu Feb 24, 1:07 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 2:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 1:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 1:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 3:23 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 4:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 4:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 5:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Sat Feb 26, 3:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Mark Knecht, (Sun Feb 27, 12:18 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Feb 27, 1:17 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Feb 27, 12:05 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Sun Feb 27, 9:38 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Andres Cabrera, (Sun Feb 27, 10:41 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Thomas Vecchione, (Sun Feb 27, 11:21 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Feb 27, 1:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Sat Feb 26, 3:52 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Renato, (Sat Feb 26, 9:44 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 8:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Thu Feb 24, 9:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 9:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 11:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Fri Feb 25, 12:34 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Fri Feb 25, 5:52 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Fri Feb 25, 6:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Giblock, (Fri Feb 25, 8:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jens M Andreasen, (Fri Feb 25, 12:43 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Fri Feb 25, 11:28 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jens M Andreasen, (Fri Feb 25, 1:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Joel Roth, (Sat Feb 26, 4:59 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Thu Feb 24, 10:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 10:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 9:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 9:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Thu Feb 24, 10:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Thu Feb 24, 5:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, torbenh, (Thu Feb 24, 4:28 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 4:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Thu Feb 24, 12:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Thorsten Wilms, (Thu Feb 24, 12:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 5:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Arnold Krille, (Thu Feb 24, 6:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Michael Bechard, (Thu Feb 24, 6:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Harry Van Haaren, (Thu Feb 24, 8:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Michael Bechard, (Thu Feb 24, 8:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Thu Feb 24, 6:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Thu Feb 24, 12:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 2:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Wed Feb 23, 10:39 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Folderol, (Wed Feb 23, 1:42 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 8:34 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 6:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 8:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Mon Feb 21, 8:27 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Mon Feb 21, 10:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Mon Feb 21, 11:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 2:56 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Tue Feb 22, 9:44 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 5:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, michael noble, (Wed Feb 23, 3:33 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 8:00 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Wed Feb 23, 9:03 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 4:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, torbenh, (Wed Feb 23, 9:57 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Wed Feb 23, 11:03 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 5:23 pm)
[LAD] libsuil (was: IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb), Rui Nuno Capela, (Wed Feb 23, 7:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] libsuil (was: IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb), David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 7:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] libsuil, Rui Nuno Capela, (Wed Feb 23, 8:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] libsuil, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 9:21 am)
Re: [LAD] libsuil, Rui Nuno Capela, (Thu Feb 24, 9:39 am)
Re: [LAD] libsuil, David Robillard, (Thu Feb 24, 4:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] libsuil, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 9:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, torbenh, (Wed Feb 23, 11:44 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Tue Feb 22, 6:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 8:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Giblock, (Tue Feb 22, 10:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 1:22 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Giblock, (Wed Feb 23, 1:33 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Wed Feb 23, 1:31 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Mon Feb 21, 8:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Rui Nuno Capela, (Mon Feb 21, 10:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 2:06 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Fri Jan 14, 8:44 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Jan 15, 12:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Jan 15, 12:30 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Jan 15, 12:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Tom Szilagyi, (Fri Jan 14, 10:29 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Mon Feb 21, 7:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Feb 21, 8:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Mon Feb 21, 10:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Mon Feb 21, 11:12 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 2:27 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Feb 22, 12:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 5:52 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 2:14 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Tue Feb 22, 4:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Feb 22, 6:54 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Tue Feb 22, 8:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Feb 22, 12:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 1:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 12:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Cornette, (Wed Feb 23, 2:57 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Tue Feb 22, 9:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Sean Bolton, (Tue Feb 22, 5:06 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Feb 22, 1:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Feb 22, 1:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 1:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Feb 22, 4:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 6:33 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Fons Adriaensen, (Tue Feb 22, 7:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 9:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Tue Feb 22, 10:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Philipp Überbacher, (Tue Feb 22, 9:31 pm)
[LAD] On LAD (WAS: Re: [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb), David Robillard, (Wed Feb 23, 1:11 am)
Re: [LAD] On LAD (WAS: Re: [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb), Lorenzo Sutton, (Wed Feb 23, 10:29 am)
Re: [LAD] On LAD (WAS: Re: [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb), Alexandre Prokoudine, (Wed Feb 23, 9:40 am)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 8:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Arnold Krille, (Tue Feb 22, 8:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 8:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Nick Copeland, (Tue Feb 22, 9:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] [OT] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Devin Anderson, (Tue Feb 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Paul Davis, (Tue Feb 22, 1:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Tom Szilagyi, (Tue Feb 22, 1:07 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, David Robillard, (Tue Feb 22, 3:00 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANN] IR: LV2 Convolution Reverb, Michael Beer, (Thu Jan 13, 9:00 pm)