Re: [LAD] minimal LV2

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To: Steve Harris <steve@...>
Cc: Linux Audio Developers <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 4:58 pm

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On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Steve Harris wrote:

> On 2010-06-13, at 00:20, fons@kokkinizita.net wrote:

I would like to add that as a beginner to LV2 plugins, I found the use of
urls to be *extremely* confusing. In every other context that I have
encountered a string beginning with "http://", it has been a direct
reference to a web page or document existing at that URL. The implication
with attaching "http://" is that the URL is synonymous with the file hosted
there. However, in this case, the URL is not actually a resource locator,
but a resource identifier. It was quite a shock when I found out that I
identified plugins by a URL which didn't even have to exist, and when it did
exist, it wasn't actually the plugin, but a website with autogenerated
documentation. It is also confusing how both extensions and plugins use
URLs.

If your goal is to have documentation easily accessible, then a line
would serve the purpose just as well. The way it's
currently set up, you have no idea if the URL is dereferenceable, or even
supposed to be dereferenceable.

It probably would be a lot less confusing if URLs were used with a special
prefix, like "lv2://blarg", because then it would be at least a bit more
evident that the URLs are not supposed to be dereferenced by a web browser.
This also would make things a lot nicer for plugin creators who don't own a
website, because it is very confusing to choose a URL to something that you
know you will never own, and especially confusing to create a URL that is
just "bogus".

Anyway, I'm not saying you should change it, because it obviously works fine
enough, and doesn't actually do anything harmful to the actual
archetecture. I'm just saying that Fons is not alone in finding the URL
naming scheme confusing. I'm sure it is confusing to most new lv2 users.

Jeremy

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On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Steve H=
arris <steve@pl=
ugin.org.uk
> wrote:

On 2010-06-13, at 00:20, fons@kokkinizita.net wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 12:09:12AM +0100, Steve Harris wrote:

ons@kokkinizita.net wrote:

Well, their hardly ambiguous. I would imagine that misleading-ness is=
somewhat dependent on your context.

If you don't feel comfortable with dereferencable symbols you could use=
schemes such as URN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_N=
ame
) which cannot be resolved, but it's missing some of the potenti=
al advantage.

http://www.w3.o=
rg/Addressing/

There are times when having the namespace be dereferencable is an advantage=
. If someone discovers a LV2 turtle file in the wild, but has no idea what =
LV2 is (this has happened) they can paste a URI into their web browser and =
discover more about it. I guess it's little different to googling the f=
ingerprint of a binary data file you find, but it's much more reliable.=

The remaining advantage is really just namespacing, but using an existing g=
lobally deployed, cheap, and well understood allocation scheme - the DNS sy=
stem and HTTP paths.I would like to add that=
as a beginner to LV2 plugins, I found the use of urls to be *extremely* co=
nfusing.=A0 In every other context that I have encountered a string beginni=
ng with "http://", it has been a direct reference to a web page o=
r document existing at that URL.=A0 The implication with attaching "ht=
tp://" is that the URL is synonymous with the file hosted there.=A0 Ho=
wever, in this case, the URL is not actually a resource locator, but a reso=
urce identifier.=A0 It was quite a shock when I found out that I identified=
plugins by a URL which didn't even have to exist, and when it did exis=
t, it wasn't actually the plugin, but a website with autogenerated docu=
mentation.=A0 It is also confusing how both extensions and plugins use URLs=
.

If your goal is to have documentation easily accessible, then a line &l=
t;docurl=3Dhttp://blah> would serve the purp=
ose just as well.=A0 The way it's currently set up, you have no idea if=
the URL is dereferenceable, or even supposed to be dereferenceable.=A0

It probably would be a lot less confusing if URLs were used with a spec=
ial prefix, like "lv2://blarg", because then it would be at least=
a bit more evident that the URLs are not supposed to be dereferenced by a =
web browser.=A0 This also would make things a lot nicer for plugin creators=
who don't own a website, because it is very confusing to choose a URL =
to something that you know you will never own, and especially confusing to =
create a URL that is just "bogus".

Anyway, I'm not saying you should change it, because it obviously w=
orks fine enough, and doesn't actually do anything harmful to the actua=
l archetecture.=A0 I'm just saying that Fons is not alone in finding th=
e URL naming scheme confusing.=A0 I'm sure it is confusing to most new =
lv2 users.

Jeremy

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Messages in current thread:
[LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sat Jun 12, 10:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Igor Brkic, (Sat Jun 12, 11:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Olivier Guilyardi, (Sun Jun 13, 3:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sat Jun 12, 10:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sat Jun 12, 11:06 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sat Jun 12, 11:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Steve Harris, (Sat Jun 12, 11:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sat Jun 12, 11:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Steve Harris, (Sun Jun 13, 10:55 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Jeremy, (Sun Jun 13, 4:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sun Jun 13, 8:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Steve Harris, (Mon Jun 14, 7:04 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Mon Jun 14, 10:04 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Mon Jun 14, 11:27 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Steve Harris, (Mon Jun 14, 11:25 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Mon Jun 14, 12:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Ralf Mardorf, (Mon Jun 14, 11:52 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Paul Davis, (Sun Jun 13, 9:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Jeremy, (Mon Jun 14, 12:23 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Geoff Beasley, (Mon Jun 14, 12:46 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Mon Jun 14, 11:54 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, alex stone, (Mon Jun 14, 12:06 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Mon Jun 14, 12:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, alex stone, (Mon Jun 14, 12:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Jun 14, 7:34 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, alex stone, (Mon Jun 14, 8:55 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sun Jun 13, 9:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, drew Roberts, (Mon Jun 14, 3:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Mon Jun 14, 3:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Mon Jun 14, 9:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Mon Jun 14, 10:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Paul Davis, (Sun Jun 13, 10:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Olivier Guilyardi, (Sun Jun 13, 10:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, James Morris, (Sun Jun 13, 8:51 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Steve Harris, (Mon Jun 14, 6:31 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sun Jun 13, 3:09 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sun Jun 13, 1:04 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sun Jun 13, 4:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Paul Davis, (Sun Jun 13, 1:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sun Jun 13, 1:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, alex stone, (Sun Jun 13, 2:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sun Jun 13, 2:10 am)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, , (Sat Jun 12, 11:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] minimal LV2, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sat Jun 12, 11:07 pm)