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On 05/24/2010 01:47 PM, torbenh wrote:

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> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:36:43PM +0200, Olivier Guilyardi wrote:

>

>>> then you need to manage most memory yourself again....

>> Which may results in choosing a simplified memory model, and thus optimization.

>>

>>> could you explain your reasons a bit more ?

>> First, it's not all about reasons, it's also a matter of taste. But what I like

>

> taste is one of the strongest reasons in my opinion.

I follow you here :-)
[...]
>> That said, in the past I chose to write a GUI using pure C with Gtk, and this

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>> was really a mistake I think. Adding simple features is really heavy now.

>

> yes. thats what i referred to.

> you cant simply derive from GtkWidget in C ... you need to write 50 locs

> of boilerplate to do that.

Yes, I don't think that I'll ever choose C for the GUI part again, by the way.

But, as I previously meant, that is very likely to be the case for the low level

part.
>>>> But maybe that, with experience and methodology, one can get as productive in C

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>>>> as in C++? I suppose the guys at Gnome would agree with that..

>>> there is a reason why gob2 and vala emerged.

>>> writing a GObject in C is a pretty big PITA.

>> Indeed, and that's why I don't use Vala. To make any real use of it, you need to

>> write GObjects wrappers for the libraries or low level C/C++ routines that you

>> need, before you can bind them into Vala.

>

> hmm... i actually view it from the other side.

> if i want to derive from GtkWidget or somthing this is a huge PITA in C.

> in vala this is easy and streight forward. and the vala code compiles to C

> so i can go ahead and use my vala widget from my C code.

I understand that you use Vala solely as a GObject generator.. I didn't think

about this actually. I was talking about using Vala as the main language, or at

least the whole GUI part, and call native code from Vala through bindings.
> you dont need to write GObject wrappers. but vala can generate bindings

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> automatically through GObject introspection.

Yes I know about this, but if you need bindings for your low level stuff (jack,

etc..) or for a library for which the bindings do not exist, then you need to

write a GObject wrapper in C for this introspection to take place.
But using Vala to generate the wrapper skeleton could be the key.. I didn't

think about this actually.
[...]
>> Nevertheless, Vala looks promising. But I don't like the GObject model. I made

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>> my own OO constructs in C with inheritance and such, but if you want the whole

>> thing, with interfaces etc.., I think that C just isn't the way to go.

>

> your own OO constructs dont really help you when you want to derive from a GObject.

> and thats the whole point, i think.

Yes, but my constructs are very simple and readable to me :p They were never

meant to be coupled with GObject, they bring some OO features I need, and it's

just pure C, no code generation, etc.. Eg:

http://jackbeat.samalyse.org/browser/trunk/src/stream
> gtkmm makes deriving easy. but the resulting object cant be wrapped with pygtk

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> or other stuff. you lock yourself into the c++ domain.

> or write your own wrappers.

If using Python and C/C++ (a great couple by the way), they I think the GUI part

should be written in Python anyway.
>>> its probably possible to create the boilerplate out of some kind of

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>>> template.

>>> but i am not aware of some rails/paster like framework to create this

>>> boilerplate with a single command.

>> Actually, I'm currently thinking about some very clever IDE and intellisense

>> features for C. When I look at this Eclipse IDE, and all that it understands,

>> and thus automatically proposes, I think that similar aids could really be

>> useful in C.

>

> hmm... when it comes to C i dont miss anything from vim. its pretty much smart enough.

> c++ is another story. since the tags system isnt smart enought to

> resolve x->write() to the right write() method of all those classes that support that interface.

I've been using the tags system for C, then I stopped using it, tried again,

etc.. I'm not very confident with the exuberant thing and the like. I once tried

some vim intellisense system, I think that one sort of worked, but Googl'ing

about that it looks like it gained maturity:

http://insenvim.sourceforge.net/
I think that some day I need to seat and work a couple of days on optimizing my

Vim setup. Maybe even learn the scripting part..
> if your still into vim you might want to have a look at http://eclim.org/

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> thats pretty awesome :)

I have to try this, especially the headless mode, thank you :-)
However, it's not that I really like the Eclipse Java machinery. But I'm

currently forced to use it, and I have to witness that source refactoring for

function, class renaming, and a couple of other features are awesome.
I'll give a try to Eclim to see what it has to offer in this regard.
--

  Olivier
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