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Tim E. Real wrote:

quoted text
> On March 19, 2010 06:33:32 pm fons@kokkinizita.net wrote:

>

>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 10:54:24PM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

>>

>>> fons@kokkinizita.net wrote:

>>>

>>>> And don't forget that 90% of all music that is still

>>>> popular today has been produced without any form of

>>>> automation, and even without the editing facilities

>>>> that e.g. Ardour provides - just using 16 or 24-track

>>>> tapes (and in many cases even less). If you can't do

>>>> a decent fade-out manually you just have to learn and

>>>> do it. Agreed, it's easier with a real P&G fader than

>>>> with one you have to move by mouse.

>>>>

>>> Full ACK and IMO it's not up to the audio engineer to fade, but it's

>>> the task of the musician to play the instrument dynamically. In most

>>> cases an audio engineer makes a mix that is kept for a whole song,

>>> loud and silent passages are done by the artist, not by the

>>> technician.

>>>

>> That's certainly true for most of the music I love,

>> but OTOH in practice as an audio engineer you are

>> supposed to solve problems created by circumstances

>> out of your control. If a singer wants to redo one

>> phrase of song and it ends up being a few dB louder

>> than the rest you'll have to accept that - you can't

>> ask to do it again just because of that.

>>

> My problem exactly. Two takes are often not played the same way at the

>  same volume, especially considering the volume of each note played,

>  compared to another track. Also, guitarists like to double-track.

>

> Ralf is saying, if you flub a note, you haven't mastered your part!

> A recording is: The artist plays, you record. End of story.

> It's a much more 'live' affair, like recording an orchestra for example.

> Tweaking notes! That's for pop, eh?

>

> It's only Rock and Roll... But I like it... Like it... Yes I do...

> Solos are hard. Sometimes many takes, just to get that bad note or phrase.

> So I do need cross-fading (and other automation goodies).

> So in MusE it is supplied via audio automation. I agree it is a pain having to

>  input the events. There may be some advances on this front coming soon from

>  Robert... I hope...

>   

I'm a "light music" musician myself. If you piece together improvised

solos, it isn't improvisation any more. Anyway, it's valid to arrange

solos this way, if you like it. Such takes are usually done immediately,

so the main loudness always should be the same. Just cutting and putting

this takes together sometimes needs cross-fading. This can be done for

nearly every recording application by overlapping the recordings and

defining fade outs and ins for overlapping passages. If even this

doesn't work, I guess you seldom will be able to do it better by using

fader automation. Sometimes just recording a new take, instead of

cutting and pasting and mixing is the better way.

I very often compose, arrange and mix music at the same time, being

alone in my homestudio. I also know this way of making music. Sometimes

I do play instruments I don't rule. The computer should enable us to

make music this way. But anyway it's better to practise, practise and

practise and to avoid this. Do it all the year around. I once was a good

instrumentalist, had a long break and now I'm not a good instrumentalist

any more. Do you know that Django Reinhardt had an accident and that he

played solos with just two fingers?

You concern is a valid concern, but IMO it's possible to fit together

several takes and sometimes music needs exercises.

I do understand what you are talking about.
>> But it's no

quoted text
>> big deal. Either you just remember to push the fader

>> at the right time, or today, using Ardour, you can

>> just cut out that fragment and move it to a separate

>> track with its own EQ and level. I find this a lot

>> easier than using automation.

>>

> In MusE you can leave the fragment alone and just do some automation

>  tweaking for it, or move the fragment as you say to its own track with

>  a different volume, but you must supply any desired cross-fade automation

>  events, it's not as advanced as Ardour.

I dunno, but perhaps for Muse it's the way like it is for Qtractor? You

need to use the mouse and move the graphic of the recordings at the end

and the beginning of overlapping tracks? IMO this is much easier than

moving a virtual fader.
But ok, everything about this was written and you prefer automation,

that's ok, but you can see that some people do it without automation.

It's possible, nothing is missing.
Ralf

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