Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?

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To: Robin Gareus <robin@...>
Cc: <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009 - 3:23 pm

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On 08/10/2009 12:56 AM, Robin Gareus wrote:

I think it is a part of a wider issue that a standard could be used to
correct. I have a feeling that if we approached Adobe with an open
letter saying that we as the flag bearers for Linux Audio highly
recommend they provide a flexible path for the 64 bit lib then it would
probably get to the right people.

A secondary issue that you have brought up here is that jack is very
capable of handling many things for the desktop that pulseaudio is
currently failing at on a 64 bit system and many people prefer to use
jack instead of pulseaudio for that reason.

However pulse is being shipped as the default sound server for all major
distros. There is a major disconnect here in that jack is not designed
to be the default server for a desktop audio system but it does fufil
the purpose quite well in many ways whereas pulse is designed to be a
desktop audio server but it doesn't allow for professional apps to
connect to jack easily at the moment.

Should we not be recommending a set of guidelines for the distro
packagers to attempt to follow and not let them dictate to us how the
sound system should be organised?

After all we (LAD) are the ones who designed it so we are best placed to
recommend how it should be best configured.

For example:

- A distribution should attempt to run jack as the default audio server.
- Pulseaudio should connect to jack by default and fall back to the alsa
layer if jack is not running.
- Closed source binaries should provide flexibility for changing the
audio library path and not be hardcoded to /usr/lib/

Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd

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On 08/10/2009 12:56 AM, Robin Gareus wrote:

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Patrick Shirkey wrote:

On 08/09/2009 10:35 PM, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Patrick Shirkey wrote:

On 08/09/2009 10:12 PM, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote:

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Patrick Shirkey wrote:

On 08/09/2009 08:12 PM, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote:

Patrick Shirkey:

On 08/08/2009 09:57 PM, Jens M Andreasen wrote:

On Sat, 2009-08-08 at 16:44 +1000, Patrick Shirkey wrote:

Here's what I have found after extensive testing with the
latest dev
version of pulseaudio-v0.9.16-4 and jack-0.116.1 on a 2 core
amd, 4GB
notebook running Fedora 11.

1. 32 bit apps will not play on a 64 bit pulseaudio easily or
at all.
2. Skype, Realplayer/Helix and Flash are a pain to get working
with
pulseaudio if they work at all.

These two items are related, right? Does it go away with a
32bit/extended kernel?

I haven't tested with a 32 bit system. I'm not sure if I will get
the
time for that. I don't think in this case it has much to do with the
kernel. I think it is because pulse is compiled for 64 bit and
the apps
are looking for 32 bit libs.

Well, there's your problem. It's great that you try out new
software though, but of course then you'll get more stability
issues as well.

To clarify, I have found that is difficult to get 32 bit apps to
connect to a 64 bit build of pulseaudio but these apps don't cause
stability issues with pulse. The problem is they just don't
connect. I can still run them directly over the alsa layer but that
locks the device in a standard Fedora 11 setup. I believe this
would affect alot of "normal" users so I would like to find a
workable solution that can be recommended to all packagers as a LAD
standard.

No, as I said, the solution is very simple: Don't install a 64 bit
OS. That's what's causing your problems, apparently.

Oh, I get you now.

So are you advocating that the official recommendation of LAD is not
to use a 64 bit system?

I'm not sure what you mean by official recommendation, but from what
you describe, 64 bit systems can cause problems when using flash and
pulseaudio.

64 bit libflashplayer is hard coded to use /usr/lib/ and on Fedora 11
the 64 bit alsa-libs live in /usr/lib64/. I'm not sure that is a problem
with a 64 bit system, libflashplayer or just Fedora's packaging policy.

I am guessing that it affects a lot of people.

The stability issues I have seen are not related to libflashplayer. That
issue is more of a usability issue in that firefox/libflashplayer
doesn't release the alsa device which makes it hard to use jack or other
apps that require access to the alsa device.

I used to be annoyed of this very much and learned to love firefox'
flashblock plugin for that matter. However using jackplug in .asoundrc
resolved this issue quite nicely for me and I don't use pulesaudio on
any system here.

Anyways, we're getting way off-topic from discussing a
linux-audio-standards-base; although discussion and diversity here shows
that it may be impossible to do so.

I think it is a part of a wider issue that a standard could be used to
correct. I have a feeling that if we approached Adobe with an open
letter saying that we as the flag bearers for Linux Audio highly
recommend they provide a flexible path for the 64 bit lib then it would
probably get to the right people.

A secondary issue that you have brought up here is that jack is very
capable of handling many things for the desktop that pulseaudio is
currently failing at on a 64 bit system and many people prefer to use
jack instead of pulseaudio for that reason.

However pulse is being shipped as the default sound server for all
major distros.

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Messages in current thread:
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Kjetil S. Matheussen, (Sun Aug 9, 10:12 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Aug 9, 12:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Kjetil S. Matheussen, (Sun Aug 9, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Arnold Krille, (Sun Aug 9, 2:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Ralf Mardorf, (Tue Aug 11, 3:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Jens M Andreasen, (Mon Aug 10, 2:21 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Aug 10, 5:23 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Jens M Andreasen, (Mon Aug 10, 7:15 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Aug 10, 7:32 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Loki Davison, (Mon Aug 10, 11:57 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Jens M Andreasen, (Sun Aug 9, 5:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Loki Davison, (Mon Aug 10, 3:52 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Arnold Krille, (Sun Aug 9, 6:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Aug 9, 8:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Arnold Krille, (Sun Aug 9, 8:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Fons Adriaensen, (Sun Aug 9, 9:47 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Arnold Krille, (Mon Aug 10, 7:44 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Aug 10, 8:02 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Nick Copeland, (Mon Aug 10, 10:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Aug 10, 11:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Ralf Mardorf, (Tue Aug 11, 5:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Jens M Andreasen, (Mon Aug 10, 8:40 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, alex stone, (Sun Aug 9, 7:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, David Robillard, (Mon Aug 10, 12:11 am)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, alex stone, (Sun Aug 9, 7:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Aug 9, 12:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Kjetil S. Matheussen, (Sun Aug 9, 12:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Aug 9, 12:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Robin Gareus, (Sun Aug 9, 2:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] linux audio standards base?, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Aug 9, 3:23 pm)