Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; Desktop/audio RT developers, read this!

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To: <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 11:02 pm

On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:

the API is simple. the implementation that the API sits on top of it
baroque. not yours, necessarily, but the combination of RTKit and
Ingo's patch. Baroque doesn't necessarily mean "huge, vast and
incomprehensible". it can just mean "overly intricate for the task at
hand".

i definitely led you astray with the reference to the jack source
code. firstly because you seem to have imagined that by mentioning the
use of POSIX i was making some kind of claim about POSIX correctness -
not sure what kind of game that it is. but secondly and more
importantly because the code now looks reasonably clean as a result of
me ditching all the crap that we needed on various older versions of
linux. yes, it is indeed now just as simple as OS X. in the code only,
of course. i had forgotten to check the current state of things before
referring to it.

>All I kindly ask for is to ease the distributors life by

so, sched_setschedparam(), a documented, implemented and demonstrably
functional call fails in some cases. and your proposal is to replace
this well-established API with a new API that doesn't actually
accomplish anything new except *WORKING* ? i'm sorry but to me this is
just absurd. the call is there, it works (for a user with certain
priviledges granted), and has a reasonably long pedigree. why should
fixing the problem with priviledge granting be accomplished with a
different call to get the same scheduling priority, a call that relies
on new kernel functionality that isn't necessary for the sched_sp()
approach? this is applying a band-aid to a deeper solution, and its
because of this that its hard to support it.

go and ask linus or ingo and/or whoever is deputized to handle (a)
scheduling and (b) priviledge control mechanisms. if they come back
and say "we think this is an appropriate solution and we don't intend
to address this any further in terms of kernel mechanisms" then the
conversation moves on to the next step - why are distributions not
being more creative with the priviledge granting mechanism that is
already in place? my reading of ingo's patch is that its mechanism,
not policy (as usual for the kernel), and its really *mostly*
duplicating facilities that are already intended to be accessed via
sched_setschedparam(). apparently, you feel otherwise. the thing is
lennart that the kernel guys and others interested in regular user
access to SCHED_(!OTHER) put a lot of effort into the current rlimit
mechanism as the appropriate solution. none of the mainstream
distributions have bothered to make it configurable, usable etc. etc.
fixing that by creating a new API just seems ... odd at best, and
counter-productive at worst.

--p
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Messages in current thread:
[LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by default; D..., Lennart Poettering, (Fri Jun 19, 6:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 7:42 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 3:56 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 1:32 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 3:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Sun Jun 21, 11:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:10 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:47 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Mon Jun 22, 9:36 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 9:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 6:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Sun Jun 21, 11:06 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:01 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 3:58 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 1:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 3:25 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 5:46 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:06 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 3:27 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Sun Jun 21, 11:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Krzysztof Foltman, (Tue Jun 23, 11:19 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Dennis Schulmeister, (Tue Jun 23, 7:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 4:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Sun Jun 21, 10:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 1:38 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 6:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 6:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 7:51 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 8:04 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 9:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 11:33 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 11:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 12:33 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Krzysztof Foltman, (Mon Jun 22, 4:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Krzysztof Foltman, (Mon Jun 22, 4:58 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 6:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 3:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 3:34 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 4:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Sun Jun 21, 11:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 12:21 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Mon Jun 22, 9:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 9:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 10:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Mon Jun 22, 10:07 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Dennis Schulmeister, (Mon Jun 22, 11:38 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Tue Jun 23, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Dennis Schulmeister, (Tue Jun 23, 12:09 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Dennis Schulmeister, (Tue Jun 23, 1:49 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 1:08 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 10:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Mon Jun 22, 9:47 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 10:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Jörn Nettingsmeier, (Tue Jun 23, 8:44 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 4:54 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 6:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 8:14 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Fri Jun 26, 5:53 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Tue Jun 23, 10:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 3:21 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 3:23 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 4:25 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Stephen Sinclair, (Wed Jun 24, 11:38 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Wed Jun 24, 12:24 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Fernando Lopez-Lezcano, (Fri Jun 26, 5:32 am)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Paul Davis, (Sun Jun 21, 11:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Sun Jun 21, 11:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Mon Jun 22, 3:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Fri Jun 19, 8:04 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Sun Jun 21, 9:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] [ANNOUNCE] Safe real-time on the desktop by defaul..., Lennart Poettering, (Fri Jun 19, 6:46 pm)