Re: [LAD] LADI

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To: Bob Ham <rah@...>
Cc: <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 3:53 pm

On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 08:53:02AM +0000, Bob Ham wrote:

> local sessions are a subset of the functionality provided by network

If you want to have network transparency inside the audio framework,
this perspective might be true.

But you could also ignore network on the audio level and just treat
remote components as special plugins in local sessions, plugins that use
socket() to connect to another host.

With this perspective, getting local things done becomes more important.
You immediately want total recall in your plugin API. LV2 anyone? ;)

The LV2-remote-controller-plugin could then (re-)connect to the remote
host and launch stuff there. This stuff doesn't even need to know
anything about jack. If it's data-triggered, you don't need a clock.
Just send data, let remote end process it, receive it back in your local
LV2 plugin and feed it into local jackd. As long as the whole process is
fast enough, everything is fine.

As already said, this is all a question of perspective. To me, having
jamin (mastering-EQ/comp/limiter) as a stand alone application is a
mistake. The mastering tool gets inserted in the project's master bus,
and every project has its own required jamin settings.

So when I open project A in Ardour, I want my mastering settings back.
LV2 could do the trick. When I open project B, a different setting might
be loaded.

>From today's point of view, I would completely ignore jamin (or any
other standalone jack application) and just use the LV2 version of the
calf plugins. Total recall, easy to handle.

The average music producer isn't interested in a bunch of single
applications which he can wire up to something special. We need to get
work done, and we need to save/recall work. On OSX and Win32, this is
achieved by a decent editor (Cubase, ProTools, Logic) and tons of
plugins. We have ardour as the decent editor, and we have LV2 plugins,
perhaps not enough, yet.

I wonder why Linux Audio always reinvents the wheel. Just look at the
Win32 side: VST-Instruments, then put your favourite EQ on the outputs
and your mastering compressor somewhere else. Still modular, but
provides total recall.

All we need is a decent plugin API, and LV2 seems to be the choice.
Total recall then comes for free from this API. LASH? Don't know why I
would want to use it, all my plugins get controlled via LV2 from the
Ardour project.

Looks like there are different stakeholders involved. The music
producer's focus is the editor which gets extended by plugins. I'm such
a representative. Whatever I do, I want to do it from ardour, inside
ardour, saved in ardour. Ardour is the most important tool to me, and
plugins are the salt to spice things up.

Call me ignorant, but I don't have a single use case for netjack. I load
a bunch of wav files, make some overdub recordings with mostly one
(vocal) to twelve (drums) tracks simultaneously, trim regions, move
snippets around, apply some FX, apply some parameter automation and mix
it all together.

Even a full-blown rock production won't exceed 150 channels. I can also
afford to freeze channels if processing power gets low - I'm not
constantly changing the drum EQs. Once setup correctly, I don't touch
them anymore. So scalability isn't really an issue, here. I did 150
channels back in 2005 on a Quad-Xeon, it would surprise me if a modern
machine couldn't handle it.

And then, there seems to be people who'd constantly record the Vienna
symphony orchestra with its hundreds of tracks, with endless demand of
DSP processing power. Those who laugh at SSL, because their tiny 96
channel consoles cannot compete. I agree those people could benefit from
network scalability.

A third group is the signal processing coder/scientist who doesn't care
about anything already mentioned. He's happy to hack his DSP code into
some standalone app, manually/statically wire it via jack and that's it.

So when talking about Pro Audio, I mean the music producer and his
desire to have everything in his single editing software. Cubase,
Ardour, ProTools. You name it. Moderate IO capabilities (usually
somewhere between 16 and 64 channels), all available in a single box.
(ProTools-HD, RME MADI, RME Fireface).

So when Florian is talking about Pro Audio, he means large broadcasting
studios and linux-under-the-hood, where a 128 channel desk is magically
expanded by another 128 channel outboard I/O rack. Granted.

To draw the conclusion: in my world, things are already pretty good as
long as it's available as LV2. I haven't checked LV2 automation, yet,
and I'd like to see a ping-pong delay be able to query/obey the host
tempo. I'd like to see LV2 virtual instruments, that is, Linuxsampler
and Hydrogen.

Given that, I shouldn't really be participating in a thread called
"LADI" ;) But perhaps I gave some insights on the everyday work of a
music producer.

And never forget: Hans Zimmer was able to win a Grammy with Logic on a
single Apple laptop. ;)

--
mail: adi@thur.de http://adi.thur.de PGP/GPG: key via keyserver
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Messages in current thread:
[LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Fri Nov 20, 8:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Danni Coy, (Sat Nov 21, 4:17 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Sean Corbett, (Sat Nov 21, 3:50 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 2:01 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 3:07 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sat Nov 21, 4:21 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Mon Nov 23, 11:49 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 5:19 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sat Nov 21, 2:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Mon Nov 23, 12:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gene Heskett, (Mon Nov 23, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Mon Nov 23, 1:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 10:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Loki Davison, (Mon Nov 23, 10:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Nov 24, 8:53 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Tue Nov 24, 3:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Nov 24, 10:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sat Dec 19, 8:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 7:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Wed Dec 23, 10:58 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 1:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Wed Dec 23, 1:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 1:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 8:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 11:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Dec 19, 10:23 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 8:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sun Dec 20, 5:25 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 10:24 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Sun Dec 20, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 7:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 8:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Sun Dec 20, 11:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Mon Dec 21, 10:45 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 8:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Tue Dec 22, 9:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Wed Dec 23, 10:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Thu Dec 24, 6:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 2:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Fri Dec 25, 11:12 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:11 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Sun Dec 27, 2:28 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:44 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:26 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 26, 1:48 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 11:18 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Arnold Krille, (Sun Dec 27, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Dec 26, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 12:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Paul Davis, (Sat Dec 26, 2:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 10:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Arnold Krille, (Sun Dec 27, 3:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sun Dec 27, 4:38 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 7:20 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Paul Davis, (Sun Dec 27, 1:52 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Ralf Mardorf, (Mon Dec 28, 6:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Dec 26, 12:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, hermann, (Sat Dec 26, 4:25 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Fri Dec 25, 3:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 4:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Fri Dec 25, 7:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Wed Jan 6, 1:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 8:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Fri Dec 25, 4:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 4:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Wed Dec 23, 11:29 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 12:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, David Robillard, (Tue Dec 22, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Tue Dec 22, 5:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Chris Cannam, (Mon Dec 21, 9:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 8:56 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 9:22 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 9:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 9:45 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 10:12 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Mon Dec 21, 1:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 10:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 12:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Tue Dec 22, 3:31 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 5:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Thorsten Wilms, (Tue Dec 22, 9:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 7:29 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 12:30 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 1:04 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 2:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 2:33 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 7:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 7:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Dave Phillips, (Tue Dec 22, 2:42 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 1:02 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Mon Dec 21, 10:34 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 11:07 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, James Warden, (Mon Dec 21, 11:26 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 8:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Christopher Cherrett, (Sun Dec 20, 10:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Dec 20, 1:22 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 12:48 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 20, 1:21 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Dec 20, 1:19 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 9:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 5:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Dec 22, 5:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 11:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sun Dec 20, 1:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Jostein Chr. Andersen, (Sun Dec 20, 2:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Sun Dec 20, 11:27 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 11:52 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 12:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Sun Dec 20, 12:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Sun Dec 20, 10:31 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 10:32 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 20, 1:32 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Tue Nov 24, 5:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 4:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 5:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 5:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 7:28 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 7:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 9:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Chris Cannam, (Tue Nov 24, 8:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Florian Faber, (Mon Nov 23, 1:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 3:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, David Robillard, (Sat Nov 21, 9:54 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 11:13 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 2:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 3:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 6:12 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 6:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 6:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Nov 21, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Victor Lazzarini, (Sat Nov 21, 12:51 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Nov 21, 12:12 pm)