Re: [LAD] LADI

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To: Patrick Shirkey <pshirkey@...>
Cc: <linux-audio-dev@...>
Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 4:21 am

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Patrick Shirkey
wrote:

> It's not easy to find motivation for continuing development when a large

I think that I should be clear on why nedko's work on using dbus with
jack has not been integrated into the jack1 codebase. Its really very
simple, and has absolutely to do with the "dbus" issue in the way that
it has played out on this mailing list. there are basically a few core
reasons:

1) the coding guidelines specify that the core jack1 codebase should
contain only ANSI C and POSIX. we allow utility clients to exist that
have other dependencies, but they are always conditionally compiled
and are not considered core elements of JACK. dbus does not meet this
test.

2) the only API to talk to the JACK server has been provided by one or
more libraries provided by JACK. this means, for example, that we have
not "published" the protocol used between the server and libjack. It
is therefore incongruous with the existing design of JACK to add any
IPC mechanism (OSC, dbus, CORBA, DCOP, Sun-RPC or whatever else you
might care to suggest) directly into the JACK server or libraries that
make up the core of JACK.

3) reliance on 3rd party technology is only acceptable if it is
clearly platform independent. dbus does not meet this test (although
it is not terribly far from meeting it, it still does not meet it).
there are actually very few IPC technologies that do.

4) reliance on technologies that appear to be tied into
desktop-centric computing architectures should probably be avoided in
the core of JACK. Having other JACK tools that integrate well with
various desktop platforms seems VERY desirable, but it seems
reasonably clear that there is no inherent reason to build such
functionality into anything that is distributed as "part of JACK". if
a particular distribution wanted to "fix JACK" by integrating into
their desktop, that also seems entirely reasonable, and might be
something that other distributions would pick up. the success of such
work would have little to no impact on the core of JACK. Hopefully,
this can remain focused on providing, as well as it can, a
cross-platform pro-audio/music audio server for use on a variety of
platforms and a variety of use cases, including but not limited to
systems where "integration" is not an issue. Nedko's jackdbus actually
shows a way to do this: he provides (almost simultaneous) releases of
jackbus that feature a level of integration between JACK and
dbus-based IPC for control that seems inappropriate for a general
release of JACK. I am glad that those who which to control JACK in
this way have the chance to do so with current versions - its a good
thing.

What would always have been acceptable, and without any argument or
even much discussion was (a) implementation of the "control API" as a
JACK library combined with (b) a client that understand dbus (or OSC,
or Sun-RPC or DCOP or whatever) and translated between the JACK
control API and whatever protocol it used to communicate with the
outside world. Nedko did not want to do things in this way, and has
even stated to me on IRC that he believes that we/I should have been
willing to simply adopt the work that he did do until something better
came along. This is not how Linus has successfully managed the kernel,
and although I believe that Linus has done a better job of that then
we have managed with JACK, his example is still something that I
believe is correct to follow here.

Precisely the same points would have had to be made had Nedko or
someone else taken a similar approach using OSC, Sun-RPC, DCOP or any
other IPC protocol/technology.

None of this is intended to negate the entirely valid points that
Nedko makes about some aspects of JACK's implemenation(s). However,
his sensitivity to people's commentary on dbus, along with some of the
really undeserved and ignorant criticism of dbus that has appeared on
this mailing list, makes it necessary to try to be as clear as
possible on the actual issues that block adoption of some or all of
the work he has done. The problems that he has mentioned separately DO
need working on (and preferably fixing), and any ideas, designs and
contributions of code that meet the coding guidelines long
established, along with some of the points I have raised above will be
very welcome.

Moving on a bit ....

I am personally appalled by the debacle that LASH turned into.
Stemming from a proposal made years ago (by Bob Ham, I believe), LASH
has gone more or less nowhere. It has never arrived at a stable,
congruent and consistent specification, even via a header file. The
people working on the project have appeared to a casual observer like
myself to be in constant turnover and/or constantly redesigning the
entire system with a claim that this time it will be done right. The
project is, quite frankly, a joke when compared to what has been
managed with ALSA, LADSPA, JACK and even something like DSSI.
Certainly session management is an important issue when using a weakly
connected set of cooperating applications, and it remains almost
entirely unsolved. I personally have no faith that any of the work on
LASH has moved us notably closer to an actual solution to this issue,
although I will grant that it has helped some developers to get a
better grasp on what some of the issues actually are, and for that I
suppose we must be grateful.
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Messages in current thread:
[LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Fri Nov 20, 8:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Danni Coy, (Sat Nov 21, 4:17 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Sean Corbett, (Sat Nov 21, 3:50 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 2:01 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 3:07 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sat Nov 21, 4:21 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Mon Nov 23, 11:49 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 5:19 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sat Nov 21, 2:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Mon Nov 23, 12:26 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gene Heskett, (Mon Nov 23, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Mon Nov 23, 1:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 10:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Loki Davison, (Mon Nov 23, 10:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Nov 24, 8:53 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Tue Nov 24, 3:53 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Nov 24, 10:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sat Dec 19, 8:15 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 7:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Wed Dec 23, 10:58 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 1:08 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Wed Dec 23, 1:43 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 1:59 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 8:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 11:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Dec 19, 10:23 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 8:02 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Sun Dec 20, 5:25 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 10:24 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Sun Dec 20, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 7:17 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 8:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Sun Dec 20, 11:18 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Mon Dec 21, 10:45 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 8:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Tue Dec 22, 9:22 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Wed Dec 23, 10:25 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Thu Dec 24, 6:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 2:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Fri Dec 25, 11:12 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:11 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Sun Dec 27, 2:28 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:44 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 2:26 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sat Dec 26, 1:48 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 11:18 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Arnold Krille, (Sun Dec 27, 3:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Dec 26, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 12:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Paul Davis, (Sat Dec 26, 2:11 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sat Dec 26, 10:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Arnold Krille, (Sun Dec 27, 3:03 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], james morris, (Sun Dec 27, 4:38 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 27, 7:20 am)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Paul Davis, (Sun Dec 27, 1:52 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Ralf Mardorf, (Mon Dec 28, 6:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] JackMix [was: LADI], Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Dec 26, 12:50 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, hermann, (Sat Dec 26, 4:25 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Fri Dec 25, 3:39 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 4:16 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Adrian Knoth, (Fri Dec 25, 7:49 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Wed Jan 6, 1:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 8:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Fri Dec 25, 4:32 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Fri Dec 25, 4:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Wed Dec 23, 11:29 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Wed Dec 23, 12:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, David Robillard, (Tue Dec 22, 4:57 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Tue Dec 22, 5:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Chris Cannam, (Mon Dec 21, 9:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 8:56 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 9:22 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 9:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 9:45 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 10:12 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Mon Dec 21, 1:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Mon Dec 21, 10:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 12:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, torbenh, (Tue Dec 22, 3:31 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 5:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Thorsten Wilms, (Tue Dec 22, 9:36 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 7:29 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 12:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 12:30 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 1:04 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Tue Dec 22, 2:09 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Gabriel M. Beddingfield, (Tue Dec 22, 2:33 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 7:29 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 7:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Dave Phillips, (Tue Dec 22, 2:42 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Tue Dec 22, 1:02 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Mon Dec 21, 10:34 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Mon Dec 21, 11:07 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, James Warden, (Mon Dec 21, 11:26 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 8:31 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Christopher Cherrett, (Sun Dec 20, 10:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Dec 20, 1:22 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 12:48 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 20, 1:21 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sun Dec 20, 1:19 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 9:33 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 5:45 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Dec 22, 5:56 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Bob Ham, (Tue Dec 22, 11:35 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Sun Dec 20, 1:40 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Jostein Chr. Andersen, (Sun Dec 20, 2:20 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Sun Dec 20, 11:27 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 11:52 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, rosea grammostola, (Sun Dec 20, 12:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, alex stone, (Sun Dec 20, 12:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Nedko Arnaudov, (Sun Dec 20, 10:31 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Louigi Verona, (Sun Dec 20, 10:32 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Ralf Mardorf, (Sun Dec 20, 1:32 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 4:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Tue Nov 24, 5:10 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 4:13 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 5:05 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 5:55 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 7:28 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Paul Davis, (Tue Nov 24, 7:46 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Tue Nov 24, 9:41 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Chris Cannam, (Tue Nov 24, 8:19 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Florian Faber, (Mon Nov 23, 1:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 3:01 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, David Robillard, (Sat Nov 21, 9:54 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 11:13 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 2:48 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 3:37 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 6:12 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Rui Nuno Capela, (Sat Nov 21, 6:21 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Patrick Shirkey, (Sat Nov 21, 6:24 pm)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Nov 21, 12:00 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, Victor Lazzarini, (Sat Nov 21, 12:51 am)
Re: [LAD] LADI, , (Sat Nov 21, 12:12 pm)