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| rghvdberg | @falktx | 13:22 |
|---|---|---|
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| rghvdberg | never mind | 13:25 |
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| falktx | rghvdberg: ok | 13:59 |
| rghvdberg | porting project from reaper to ardour, or qtractor. not decided yet. | 14:00 |
| rghvdberg | exported everything as fxp, turns out the plugin has it's own internal format. | 14:02 |
| rghvdberg | had some crashes, but the project is not really depending on that specific win32 plugin. If it gives me too much trouble I'll use, zynadd/helm/linuxsampler | 14:03 |
| rghvdberg | or whatever .. | 14:03 |
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| rghvdberg | btw: I would really like a dedicated kick synth for linux | 14:21 |
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| * plasma too | 15:30 | |
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| YoJimmy | So what's the best practice for midi drums in Ardour? I rigged Hydrogen up as a straight Midi track that feeds back out to Hydrogen via Jack. I noticed Hydrogen doesn't appear (under that name anyways) under the midi+audio settings, so I'm wondering if there's a better or preferred or best way to do midi drum tracks. I've got the distro installed on my laptop, so whatever comes out of the box I've got access to, and all my hardware is good. Brilliant | 16:37 |
| YoJimmy | job, by the way - this is the first Linux Audio distro that I am actively recommending to my musician friends. | 16:37 |
| holstein | i prefer per drum from h2 | 16:37 |
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| holstein | you can send out an audio channel per drum.. | 16:37 |
| holstein | i do that as soon as possible, then, mix in the DAW like its an acoustic kit | 16:37 |
| holstein | it'll all be up to your needs, and work flow, though | 16:38 |
| YoJimmy | h2 and per drum, googling, thank you. Not familiar with those packages/apps. | 16:38 |
| YoJimmy | But I will be. :> | 16:38 |
| holstein | hydrogen | 16:38 |
| YoJimmy | Ohhh I see | 16:38 |
| holstein | its in the menu.. then, you can route, per instrument, to per channel in ardour | 16:38 |
| YoJimmy | Yah, that's what I've been doing. I was just too lazy to route it back into Ardour tracks, really, and was mostly curious if there were other options that I hadn't explored. :> | 16:39 |
| holstein | i want the audio | 16:40 |
| holstein | i dont see any advantage to mixing the kit seperately in h2 | 16:40 |
| holstein | anyways, you can ask in #opensourcemusicians as well | 16:40 |
| YoJimmy | Well, I'm asking in here because I actually want to do what the distro maintainers envision as the optimal way to work in all things, because really, the distro is very usable out of the box, so I'm trying to get a better familiarity with actual workflow. I know other, proprietary systems, learned on Pro Tools and I've recorded a few CDs with Cooledit/Audition, so I'm familiar with the concepts, mostly, but I'm specifically hitching my wagon to | 16:47 |
| YoJimmy | KXStudio's model, insofar as we've got one. I started out just using the repos and dablling, but the distro itself is quite well done in terms of presentation, so I don't see any reason the community shouldn't get behind it as our offering to the non-geeky world. Anyone who can use GarageBand on a Mac has enough smarts to use KXStudio. Can't really say that about Ubuntu Studio or any of the other creative-focused distros I've seen. | 16:47 |
| holstein | well, its not like windows, or OSX, though | 16:48 |
| holstein | its actually the same software.. maybe newer versions, or tweaked configs to work "better" | 16:48 |
| YoJimmy | No, it's very different, obviously, and less focused on pretty, more on capabilities and functions. | 16:48 |
| YoJimmy | That's down to the difference between FLOSS and proprietary software, though, rather than usability. | 16:48 |
| holstein | but, its not really constructive to cast your net, so to speak, so shallow | 16:48 |
| holstein | *anyone* doing any of the tips you are asking about, on *any* distro can give you adivce | 16:49 |
| holstein | advice* | 16:49 |
| holstein | im only offering you a place where you can obtain advice, that will work, for your situation, from professionals and enthusiasts using the same software | 16:49 |
| holstein | if you want to hang here, thats certainly fine.. im in no way kicking you out | 16:49 |
| holstein | but, i assure you, its equalizing, that we have the same core software accross the distros.. ardour, jack.. hyrdogen.. etc.. | 16:50 |
| holstein | and *you* can say what you like, specifically, about kxstudio.. and share its praise.. i know i do.. but, i assure you, ubuntustudio is relevant | 16:51 |
| YoJimmy | To our community, yes | 16:51 |
| holstein | if you see that as a devide, and literally dont want to hear any input from an ubuntustudio user, then, thats fine as well | 16:51 |
| holstein | but, it likely wont help you further your work flow | 16:51 |
| holstein | lots of the ardour camp use stock fedora.. theres avlinux that is quite relevant that is debian based.. theres many different spins of ubuntu.. but, the nice thing about all of that is the core tools that we all use, and share.. | 16:52 |
| YoJimmy | I have an agenda, though, which is to get some of my impoverished musical peers, who probably have laptops and some basic sound hardware but are either breaking their backs to pay for commercial software or else pirating, using Free music software. We are ready to give this to the wider world beyond Linux users. | 16:52 |
| holstein | sure | 16:52 |
| holstein | i do that as well | 16:53 |
| YoJimmy | And for those people, they want "just works" | 16:53 |
| holstein | sure | 16:53 |
| holstein | and what "just works" for you, may not "just work" for others | 16:53 |
| holstein | and simply expecting an end user to install an operating system at all, is usually too much | 16:53 |
| holstein | but, im not denying you any agenda. im just offering you a place where you can discuss the *same* tools.. | 16:54 |
| holstein | you want to physically install KXstudio for your friends, go for it.. | 16:54 |
| holstein | its more of a work flow change, though.. folks have invested a lot in tools and specific software | 16:54 |
| YoJimmy | My workflow will see to itself. I'm sure there are other options for drums, but in terms of my evangelism, I have for the moment settled on this distro as the one I recommend to non-techy musicians, so my focus is on this specific distro's vision. Last time I ran Ubuntu Studio, for instance, it didn't have Cadence/Catia, just qjackctl, which is clunky compared to Catia. This is part of why I like it. Maybe that's changed with Ubuntu Studio lately. | 16:54 |
| holstein | its challenging to change.. its a re-learning | 16:54 |
| holstein | YoJimmy: friend, no one is suggesting you use ubuntustudio | 16:55 |
| YoJimmy | Yes, exactly, and this distro is the closest thing I've found to "just works" | 16:55 |
| holstein | i literally dont care | 16:55 |
| YoJimmy | I know you don't. I don't either. You don't have to even listen to me. | 16:55 |
| holstein | but, to ignore the advice of someone using the *exact* same tools as you, that happens to be using ubuntustudio is not really constructive | 16:55 |
| holstein | we are not really so much off on an island here.. | 16:56 |
| YoJimmy | I know how the Free/Open Source ecosystem works, dude. | 16:56 |
| YoJimmy | Anyways, my musical friends want that Apple buzzphrase. "Just works". Whatever the case, *my* statement was not intended to denounce anyone, least of all the other channel (which you might notice, I also lurk in) or the community at large. I was specifically *praising* the efforts of this distro in the channel dedicated to this distro. | 16:57 |
| holstein | well, i dont know many, if any, folks doing specifically what you are asking about in this channel. but, there are quite a few in #opensourcemusicians .. try asking over there.. cheers, dude | 16:58 |
| YoJimmy | Someone put some polish on this, where other distros do not come across that way. The effort is worth mentioning. If I had put effort into something, I would appreciate the compliment, and I am assuming the distro maintainers lurk here as well, and might notice it, and enjoy it. | 16:59 |
| holstein | falktx did that work | 16:59 |
| holstein | the polish you reference.. | 16:59 |
| holstein | YoJimmy: he's the sole developer.. | 16:59 |
| YoJimmy | There you are. My ignorance is profound. But I like this distro. | 17:00 |
| holstein | its certainly tricky migrating.. folks have a lot invested in gear and plugins.. and time in learning thhe work flow | 17:04 |
| holstein | its not always as simple as just changing OS's.. | 17:04 |
| holstein | even that one small part of it can be quite daunting or impossible for some end users.. since, they just bought a machine with an OS on it.. this is quite a change in that way of computing | 17:05 |
| holstein | i know, i personally became quite frustrated trying to migrate.. i decided what would be best for me is to break the steps up.. | 17:06 |
| YoJimmy | Indeed. My hope is that I can get myself familiarized with this specific set of tools, without needing to do anything Linux-y like install special packages, so that I can sit a musician down at his hardware, run a USB stick (or drop a kxstudio drive in their tower) and just literally record a song while they watch. People like when they see something happen in front of them. | 17:06 |
| holstein | folks try and take an afternoon, and basically change *everything* about the system.. top to bottom.. thats sa lot to take on | 17:06 |
| holstein | the tools, and the OS is just one part | 17:06 |
| YoJimmy | This is why I'm so hyperfocused on the distro. I want to work with precisely what comes with it, and nothing else, because as you point out, it's got everything required. | 17:07 |
| holstein | there is literally a different model of support.. like, *no* support.. linux literally cannot prevent a company from providing support for it.. but, if that company doenst, and that peice of hardare was a large investment.. you can see why a person may not easily migrate | 17:07 |
| YoJimmy | You want a Hammond? Covered. Drums? Every possible sound. Piano? I haven't investigated how to do pianos yet, but I do know Zyn. | 17:07 |
| holstein | YoJimmy: there's access to the main repos.. | 17:08 |
| holstein | the same tools.. | 17:08 |
| YoJimmy | the good thing is there are no new costs involved in migrating to this. So it's an easy sell, on that level. | 17:08 |
| holstein | the same ubuntu repos, or debian repos.. depending on what base you start with | 17:08 |
| holstein | well, there can be *quite* a cost | 17:08 |
| holstein | if one has an interface, say, a MOTO, professional grade, arguably nice piece of gear.. thats now a paperweight in linux | 17:09 |
| YoJimmy | Yes, but they don't want to hear about that. Repos. No musician I know is going to ever add a repo to their OS. They'll save up, bust their ass and buy a Mac, to avoid ever having to touch a repo. | 17:09 |
| holstein | so, that investment is now wasted.. and one must buy a new one.. and what one will support linux? | 17:09 |
| holstein | YoJimmy: i dont think so, friend | 17:09 |
| YoJimmy | That's the people I know. Maybe you know different people. | 17:10 |
| holstein | YoJimmy: thats actually more the model that osX is going to.. the software store, and its sources.. thats more how software is delivered | 17:10 |
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| YoJimmy | Yes, but they just click the pretty icon and it works | 17:10 |
| YoJimmy | They don't have to edit a text file to use a mac. | 17:10 |
| YoJimmy | They don't have to deal with the shell. | 17:10 |
| holstein | anyways, im only saying, no need to limit yourself to what ships in kxstudio.. it has access to the same ubuntu and debian repos.. with *so* much stuff | 17:10 |
| YoJimmy | Ever. | 17:10 |
| holstein | well, configuring a pro audio setup on a mac can be quite similar.. there are configs, and setups.. | 17:11 |
| YoJimmy | All graphical. | 17:11 |
| holstein | and, you dont *have* to deal with a "shell" in linux | 17:11 |
| YoJimmy | And really, there aren't. I have a brand new Mac at work. It is playing with crayons. | 17:11 |
| holstein | *if* that company wants to provide support, they can | 17:12 |
| YoJimmy | I go to the shell, but you have to seek it out, and I go there to do Unixish operations like rsync. | 17:12 |
| holstein | you dont need to run rsync | 17:12 |
| YoJimmy | Sysadmin by day. | 17:12 |
| holstein | you wouldnt in osx.. | 17:12 |
| YoJimmy | I need to run rsync. | 17:12 |
| holstein | sure.. and you have that freedom in linux.. the choice to | 17:12 |
| holstein | but, you dont have to do that.. you can just use it as you would a mac.. | 17:13 |
| holstein | if you and i wanted, we could sit down and configure a system for a studio.. we would own the software and hardware stack top to bottom.. we could give that user an experience that would match or exceed that in osx.. no doubt | 17:13 |
| holstein | the issue is, expecting someone to drastically change, and do it with commmunity support.. thats more work, for sure | 17:14 |
| YoJimmy | Anyways, we're on the same page, really, I just think you're giving end user musicians a bit too much credit sometimes. Yes, musical talent doesn't make you stupid (I bloody hope not), but it doesn't mean you're gonna get technical stuff, or want to. | 17:15 |
| YoJimmy | But yes, tech support is the issue, I agree. | 17:15 |
| holstein | sure | 17:15 |
| holstein | im saying, to switch to linux, you *must* be | 17:15 |
| holstein | since, you are in charge of your own hardware support | 17:15 |
| holstein | and, installing OS's.. etc.. this is not what folks are used to.. | 17:15 |
| holstein | that complete control and choice comes at a cost.. you have to take control, and make the choices ;) | 17:16 |
| YoJimmy | I'm gonna be doing this one-on-one with specific people I know who *are* smart, and do work, and I think are ready to be free from the slavery of paying or the sketchiness of piracy. It's just not necessary anymore if you've got a three digit IQ and a willingness to learn. | 17:16 |
| holstein | kxstudio is not magic. it still has the same linux kernel and hardware support of main linux | 17:16 |
| holstein | folks still have that MOTU paperweight | 17:16 |
| holstein | and that can be enough reason not to migrate | 17:16 |
| holstein | you cant out-smart that | 17:16 |
| YoJimmy | I don't understand where a MOTU is a paperweight, if it's a class-compliant piece of hardware | 17:16 |
| YoJimmy | If it's not, that's down to the hardware manufacturer. | 17:17 |
| holstein | exactly | 17:17 |
| holstein | and the hardware manufacuter is free to and able to support linux.. linux cant stop them | 17:17 |
| holstein | but, if they dont, its a paperweight.. and, that may not be something an audio engineer is willing to re-invest in | 17:17 |
| YoJimmy | and yes, people who've invested in a Pro Tools TDM system (or whatever they're calling their "high end" ripoffs these days), they're not gonna switch anytime soon. But they're not my target either. I'm after the starving artists who want to make music and don't care how they do it. I know lots of those, and some of them are smart. | 17:18 |
| holstein | sure.. good luck | 17:18 |
| holstein | i certainly have some (one) success story.. | 17:19 |
| YoJimmy | And most gear sold these days is class-compliant. The stuff on the shelves at the music shop all works, so far as I know. | 17:19 |
| holstein | most usb devices | 17:19 |
| holstein | *most* pro audio guys avoid those | 17:19 |
| YoJimmy | Firewire is another matter, I agree | 17:19 |
| holstein | firewire, the networking audio interfaces that are all paperweights.. | 17:19 |
| holstein | anything thunderbolt.. | 17:19 |
| holstein | *all* (arguably) professional equipment | 17:20 |
| YoJimmy | And Firewire is some finicky shit too. I have a PCI card on my shelf which has a specific TI 1394 controller that I had to buy, in order to make it work under *Windows*. | 17:20 |
| holstein | right.. i have several on the shelf.. TI chipsets. | 17:20 |
| YoJimmy | Yah, Thunderbolt is Apple's turf | 17:20 |
| holstein | sure.. but, if i already have that hardware and made that investment.. you can see why that would be challenging | 17:20 |
| YoJimmy | That will die out as the actual creative artists walk away from it. Part of making that happen is, make them see that there is an alternative. | 17:20 |
| YoJimmy | The big studios are gonna stick with Apple, for now. | 17:21 |
| holstein | sure | 17:21 |
| holstein | *if* usb were an alternative | 17:21 |
| holstein | and, it is, more and more.. | 17:21 |
| YoJimmy | But I mentioned I'm a sysadmin. We're a movie company, and we're making a movie right now and we're using Blender. | 17:21 |
| holstein | but, the creators of *all* this hardware can support linux.. | 17:21 |
| YoJimmy | Open Source already owns the Internet. | 17:21 |
| holstein | sure.. blender is more than capable.. | 17:21 |
| holstein | *yawn*.. its getting a little echo-y in here for me.. but, just keep in mind, linux is not magic | 17:22 |
| YoJimmy | It's gonna take over the Creative industry too. The hardware manufacturers will start building for a fast standard that is not controlled by a single Corporation, as soon as such a platform becomes viable. I'm not sure if USB3.0 lacks it, but it's certainly fast enough for our RAID arrays. | 17:22 |
| holstein | it'll have issues with folks hardware.. and they might want to know why.. so that its not "oh, that crappy linux that doenst work with my thunderbolt hardware".. | 17:23 |
| YoJimmy | Where did I suggest any magic? | 17:23 |
| holstein | i think its time, through education, that we come together as a community and support vendors that support what we want to be using.. | 17:23 |
| holstein | why are you using blender? because you can.. 3d drivers are at the point where that can happen.. thats the market speaking.. and i like it | 17:24 |
| YoJimmy | I agree. But which community do you mean? Because the Linux desktop user community is a drop in the pissbucket, fiscally speaking. Ask Steam about that. We need musicians. | 17:24 |
| YoJimmy | We can circle jerk among ourselves all we like, or we can be like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt5oHpSy4PqpjALz74BpnRA | 17:25 |
| holstein | yeah.. maybe release albums that are reportedly made only on linux and FOSS tools | 17:26 |
| YoJimmy | I wanna be like that guy, but on a personal level. I'm not sure why you're being negative towards this absolutely necessary step, if you want our model to gain support from hardware manufacturers. | 17:26 |
| holstein | get on social media about it? | 17:26 |
| holstein | get articles in the ubuntu news letters?.. etc.. | 17:26 |
| YoJimmy | Already on it. | 17:26 |
| holstein | anyways.. i welcome you to do that.. whats nice about it is, literally no one can stop you | 17:26 |
| YoJimmy | I agree. Just wondering why you're focused on the likely stumbling blocks, rather than how we can and will and must overcome them. | 17:27 |
| holstein | because, just putting linux on a persons computer is not enough | 17:27 |
| holstein | and, we wont overcome hardware support | 17:27 |
| holstein | it'll take inviting those creators into the community, as steam is doing.. | 17:28 |
| holstein | lots of positive examples of that | 17:28 |
| YoJimmy | I agree. It needs to be the right distro, with the right polish, and yes, it won't work with all the hardware. | 17:28 |
| holstein | right. its just that, there is no "right" distroo | 17:28 |
| YoJimmy | Well, on that we disagree, as previously established. | 17:28 |
| holstein | the tools are the same between them.. so, folks can literally choose whay they want.. and what works well for them | 17:28 |
| holstein | the "right" one for you, is that.. the right one for someone else can be different, and you can use the same software, and help the same ecosystem | 17:29 |
| holstein | choosing kxstudio is doing more than just choosing kxstudio.. its choosing the upstream repos that falktx feeds.. the down stream spins.. all of those who work with upstream and patch, etc.. | 17:29 |
| holstein | kxstudio is *certaily* awesome.. i cant think of a more instrumental building block.. and falktx is great | 17:30 |
| holstein | but, to sell it as magic to a person, i believe, will make them have a bad experience when hardware issues hang themm up | 17:30 |
| YoJimmy | You keep saying that word. | 17:30 |
| holstein | "linux is not even good enough to support my printer.." | 17:30 |
| YoJimmy | I do not think it means what you think it means. | 17:31 |
| holstein | these are not concepts that im making up... these are literally things i have run into migrating folks, for years, to linux | 17:31 |
| holstein | "magic"? | 17:31 |
| YoJimmy | Yes. | 17:31 |
| holstein | it means, just install linux and everything magically works better | 17:31 |
| holstein | and thats to set someone up for failure.. | 17:31 |
| YoJimmy | That does not resemble what I say to people or my vision. That's all you, friend. | 17:31 |
| holstein | cool.. and again, dude, good luck with your vision | 17:32 |
| holstein | i know, i certainly dont want you to fail in it | 17:32 |
| YoJimmy | In fact, part of my thing is, it does NOT work better. | 17:32 |
| YoJimmy | It's community-based. Fundamentally, the Open Source model *is* better, but that's for different reasons, and understanding why is a longer discussion that few musicians I know want to have. They just want some phat beatz. | 17:33 |
| YoJimmy | But it's available, and you can get it for free, and it works on any class-compliant hardware, so for people on budgets that do not meet the ludicrous actual costs of commercial software, it's also not a difficult sell. And it *does* work. Not better. But it works. | 17:34 |
| holstein | it works where it works | 17:35 |
| holstein | all it takes is a certain type of GPU and it doesnt ;) | 17:35 |
| holstein | i just suggest taking a step higher, and buying hardware that *does* support linux.. | 17:35 |
| YoJimmy | Precisely. But that aspect of Linux has greatly improved in recent years. I carry an Ubuntu USB stick around, and I boot it up on any system I get the chance to, and it tends to just work on everything these days, in my experience. | 17:36 |
| holstein | starting more at the beginning of the chain.. rather than chainging midstream.. this is a great time where we can send someone to system76.com and they can just do this.. with no issue | 17:36 |
| holstein | that person has an 800 # they can call.. etc.. thats what they are used to | 17:37 |
| YoJimmy | And again, I'm not going after the studio guys who have invested in pro gear. | 17:37 |
| holstein | i am | 17:37 |
| holstein | we need that income in the ecosystem | 17:37 |
| holstein | as i see it.. it would be a great benefit.. | 17:38 |
| holstein | imagine if falktx were on a salary from someone like system76 for an audio ecosystemm project.. | 17:38 |
| YoJimmy | I'm after the guitarists who are busting their ass to buy some weird proprietary digital tracking device, or are aspiring to spend thousands on a Mac that will be a puny i5 CPU at a rapey price. When they can almost certainly produce some awesome-sounding stuff with a $200 interface and their existing system, IF they're willing to invest some time learning a new workflow. | 17:38 |
| holstein | its an investment of something, for sure. | 17:38 |
| YoJimmy | anything worthwhile is. A serious musician is already familiar with the concept of putting themselves through pain - usually physical - in order to gain a useful skill. My callouses attest. | 17:39 |
| holstein | but, that person who has *already* done that.. asking them to do it again.. thats a lot | 17:40 |
| holstein | that guitar player who has already learned and likes OSX.. wants a new one.. wants that interface that everyone says is great, and has some ios app | 17:41 |
| YoJimmy | Workflow and familiarity is what it comes down to. But it's a fact that if you can show them that it works, and give them a set of steps to do it themselves, someone is gonna pick up that free lunch. Cause this is some awesome stuff. And if this results in the person getting interested in Linux besides, cool. And I would never tell a user "only go to the kxstudio irc channel for advice". | 17:41 |
| holstein | i would like to talk more about moving an industry.. and what that takes.. | 17:41 |
| YoJimmy | But I know guitarists who don't have the mac yet, and think they need it in order to create. | 17:41 |
| holstein | sure.. and let them have it.. the "mac" as they know it will likely go away soon.. and we'll see if we can fill any of that gap this time, or not | 17:42 |
| holstein | i know, im not buying anything without official linux support.. | 17:42 |
| YoJimmy | All they need is a Scarlett i2i or whatever that thing on my shelf is that cost me $200 until I upgraded to the $300 Mackie thing with the board in it, and their existing system, almost certainly, and they can get started right away. | 17:42 |
| holstein | you dont even *need* a computer.. | 17:42 |
| YoJimmy | change happens one person at a time. LAMP didn't just take over the Internet in a day, it was a long process of one business after another adopting the new model. | 17:42 |
| YoJimmy | Because it made sense to do so. | 17:43 |
| holstein | cool | 17:43 |
| holstein | so, you guys just let folks randomly start using blender as they choose? | 17:43 |
| holstein | thats cool | 17:43 |
| holstein | just one at a time in there ;) | 17:43 |
| YoJimmy | I don't care about official support. I just care if it works. | 17:43 |
| holstein | the end user wants both | 17:43 |
| holstein | they want a # to call when its not working.. like they have now | 17:43 |
| YoJimmy | We are one company that adopted it, and it made sense to do so. They used Maya on the last one, paid a ridiculous amount of money and got no support at all. So this time, they hired developers to write the Blender tools they needed, some of which will be put back into the ecosystem. Music can do this too. | 17:44 |
| holstein | yup | 17:44 |
| holstein | *all* in one go.. all at once. that entire place | 17:44 |
| YoJimmy | Not the whole industry, though. | 17:44 |
| YoJimmy | One company, doing one movie. | 17:44 |
| holstein | sure.. but that can happen | 17:45 |
| holstein | small countries do it.. | 17:45 |
| holstein | one company doing one movie is not just one person.. its a part of the industry making a choice that they see is 'better' | 17:45 |
| holstein | if anything is an example of that, android is.. | 17:46 |
| YoJimmy | Sure, and we're not the only ones. But again, the last movie - last year, before I was with the company - we used Maya and paid, as I said, a LOT of money. | 17:46 |
| YoJimmy | We are living through an era of profound social change, propelled by technology, and by Open Source principles that are demonstrably better at producing good software. | 17:46 |
| holstein | all im commenting to is, when you go one at a time, that end user doenst have the support that they are used to | 17:47 |
| YoJimmy | Well, my users will have me. | 17:47 |
| YoJimmy | That's how this thing works. | 17:47 |
| holstein | whhen the adroid phones came out, you didnt need to join a community, or search for community support.. there was a familiar path of support | 17:47 |
| YoJimmy | That's how I give back to the community, at this juncture, because I'm just a code toddler. | 17:47 |
| YoJimmy | Community development, community support. | 17:48 |
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| YoJimmy | And let's face it - the "support" aspect of the FLOSS ecosystem really sucks. | 17:48 |
| holstein | and, im not arguing that is better or worse. its *different* | 17:48 |
| holstein | folks are used to calling an 800#.. thats all | 17:49 |
| holstein | when the folks on the other end of those support calls choose to support linux, as in android, then, linux work | 17:49 |
| holstein | as in routers.. TV's.. etc.. | 17:49 |
| YoJimmy | Well, I think if you don't see the massive problems associated with commercial software... we probably need to talk some more. There is a reason, as I say, that Linux is ascendant and Microsoft suddenly loves Open Sourcing everything. | 17:49 |
| holstein | again, im not saying better or worse | 17:49 |
| YoJimmy | It *is* better. It's not even an economic discussion, it's a practical one. | 17:49 |
| holstein | and, im certainly not arguing for commercial softwaer | 17:50 |
| holstein | im arguing for *more* than just you and me to assist someone who is broke | 17:50 |
| YoJimmy | RMS is a bit of a pinko, near as I can tell, but there's people like that Eric Raymond, a right wing libertarian zealot if ever there was one. The Cathedral vs. The Bazaar. Everyone who understands code agrees, the Cathedral is the old way, and a bad way. | 17:51 |
| YoJimmy | I agree with the idea that we should have some financial support. And I think falktx should be the one heading that project, if it happens. | 17:51 |
| YoJimmy | That is my considered opinion, having used all the distros. | 17:51 |
| holstein | i tend to lean more towards "we probably can all get along and coexist". but again, im not arguing for commercial software | 17:51 |
| holstein | im arguing for a similar support model that folks are used to getting. | 17:52 |
| YoJimmy | I have an ideological hatred for commercial software. I make no bones about it. This way we understand each other. :> | 17:52 |
| holstein | right.. and i dont hate anything.. i just dont use it | 17:52 |
| YoJimmy | That is less important to me, because in my experience, Cathedral-type software vendors don't do support much better than the FLOSS community, in the final analysis. | 17:53 |
| holstein | again,its not about getting "better" support | 17:53 |
| holstein | its about familiar support.. a person that is paid to make sure your question is answered | 17:53 |
| holstein | and, that they can answer it.. they support the hardware,and linux | 17:53 |
| holstein | i want that to be FOSS as well | 17:54 |
| YoJimmy | Yes, and I think that notion is itself a bit of a fantasy in the first place. The only companies that I have ever gotten anything I would describe as support from are hardware companies. M-Audio, for instance, are a company with a lot of integrity, in my opinion, in that I had a Delta 1010 once upon a time that had something go wrong years after warranty ran out, and they still replaced it when I called and asked. | 17:54 |
| YoJimmy | But I'm all for what you describe | 17:54 |
| holstein | getting broke guitar players more down the road with their old p4's.. not sure that plays in.. especially if they are not joining said community.. | 17:55 |
| YoJimmy | But right now, I just want people to realize that they've got some amazing tools just sitting in front of them, and they don't need to invest thousands to make music. | 17:55 |
| holstein | sure | 17:55 |
| holstein | we literally cant keep the tools from those folks | 17:56 |
| YoJimmy | That's the totality of my agenda. | 17:56 |
| holstein | its like the old horse.. you cant make him drink the water | 17:56 |
| holstein | its literally free for all.. just sittinng there..but, they dont want the tool | 17:56 |
| holstein | they want the familiar experience | 17:56 |
| YoJimmy | And I believe that's got to do with perceptions, based on outdated truths that are no longer true about Linux. The desktop is just as ready as Windows or Mac, in 2016. | 17:57 |
| YoJimmy | Now it's just inertia. | 17:57 |
| YoJimmy | And fear of change. | 17:57 |
| holstein | but, what do we do with folks that dont *want* to join a community? | 17:57 |
| YoJimmy | We let them create. | 17:57 |
| YoJimmy | We help them create. | 17:58 |
| holstein | they wont.. they want another model that we cant provide | 17:58 |
| holstein | they dont want community support. they want it to "just work", as you mentioned about | 17:58 |
| YoJimmy | Maybe. I think you're wrong about that. | 17:58 |
| holstein | above* | 17:58 |
| holstein | thats not isolated to apple | 17:58 |
| holstein | they literally dont want to have to learn to tinker.. | 17:58 |
| holstein | im into it.. you are... falktx certainly is.. but, how about the folks that dont want that? | 17:59 |
| holstein | the ones that get the kernel panic warning bootinng the live iso on the iMac.. | 17:59 |
| holstein | the ones that get odd flashing lights on the screen with GPU driver issues and think "linux is breaking my investment" | 18:00 |
| holstein | or the folks that have failing windows hard drives and think installing linux can "save" them.. | 18:00 |
| holstein | my broke guitar player friend is installing winndows xp on new laptops to use his older interface ;) | 18:01 |
| YoJimmy | And they no longer have to, is my point. The thing does work just as well as Windows and Mac - which do NOT actually "just work" anymore than Linux, at this point. It's a perception and a sales pitch, with a reality that falls short. My assertion is that, class-compliant hardware assumed, the actual user experience of the three has reached parity, once you remove personal inertia from the equation. | 18:02 |
| holstein | and, i have done all but physically intervene and put linux on there | 18:02 |
| holstein | well, when things dont "magically" work.. the 800 # lets them know they have now voided the warranty by installing linux ;) | 18:02 |
| holstein | you cant make a sales pitch, since, we are not selling a product.. | 18:03 |
| YoJimmy | Don't even get me started on that shit. I advocate the removal of Win/Mac more than ever since last week | 18:04 |
| YoJimmy | I have Linux dualbooted on my workstation | 18:04 |
| YoJimmy | Win10 did an "update" and fucked my boot manager. I was livid. | 18:04 |
| holstein | i mean, look at us.. we both use linux.. and we cant even come up with a sentence that basically states something like "migrating to linux is challenging, i wish we had more vendor support" and agree on it ;) | 18:04 |
| YoJimmy | I will never dualboot again. | 18:04 |
| YoJimmy | Ha! :> | 18:04 |
| holstein | its really bullshit.. i mean, you want to personally support folkks one on one, i say, good on you for that | 18:05 |
| holstein | go for it.. and i wish you well | 18:05 |
| holstein | i got fried on it, and i wasnt even able to get a pro audio user to migrate.. | 18:05 |
| holstein | just simple printer BS.. certain mystery hardware that wasnt around when we installed linux.. | 18:05 |
| YoJimmy | Well, it's a matter of identifying where your time is worth investing. I have a personal love for my fellow musicians, including the non-technical ones. Them especially - I see them as being subject to a form of artistic slavery, where they can't create without first paying, or accepting a compromised ethical stance. | 18:06 |
| holstein | i decided that i need to set the sights a bit higher, and continue to educate and vote with my wallet and encourage others to do so | 18:06 |
| YoJimmy | I'm actively seeking the people who are interested, but when I find them, I don't want them to have to do anything that a Mac or Windows machine doesn't demand they do. | 18:06 |
| holstein | so.. thats what im doiing here.. dont buy windows machines.. you shouldnt have a windows 10 bootloader ;) | 18:06 |
| holstein | dont let your friends buy them.. | 18:06 |
| YoJimmy | That's my work workstation, no choice | 18:07 |
| holstein | lol | 18:07 |
| holstein | theres *always* choice.. | 18:07 |
| holstein | but if you choose to be employed, thats certainly a valid choice.. and its similar to what i would expect you could run into in your work | 18:07 |
| YoJimmy | Well, the choice I made was to just install it on an older tower that was lying around and use that as my main desktop, with RDP to connect to my "real" workstation. | 18:07 |
| holstein | "hey man, you said linux was great, and now my computer wont boot!" | 18:08 |
| YoJimmy | Won't happen, cause I have decided that friends don't let friends dual boot. | 18:08 |
| holstein | and, im sure you know folks that couldnt do that.. | 18:08 |
| holstein | you know you need a bare metal install for a lot of things, and if windows is in that equation, you have a dual boot.. | 18:08 |
| holstein | but, im sure you can work around that, if you volunteer, and, the friends are patient | 18:09 |
| holstein | i know, one of my friends was patient enough | 18:09 |
| YoJimmy | Yes. And again, I'm focused on finding the people who want the capabilities in the same way they wanted to learn to play, and are ready to work. The rest are just dilletantes anyways. Anyone who is making music is worth my time, if it's worth their time. | 18:09 |
| holstein | cool. enjoy! | 18:10 |
| holstein | cheers. | 18:10 |
| YoJimmy | It won't be everyone, it'll be one or two, so my actual time won't be too put upon, but I might help foster some music. | 18:10 |
| holstein | well, music doenst require a computer.. | 18:11 |
| holstein | but, im sure you can potentially foster community members.. | 18:11 |
| YoJimmy | Recording it does, unless you're analog loyalist, in which case fuck you. ;-> | 18:11 |
| holstein | lol | 18:11 |
| holstein | its not really "loyal" to assume you can record on something other than a computer | 18:11 |
| YoJimmy | Well, I'm certainly not going to be telling anyone to stay away from the community. But I will definitely tell them what to expect from a FOSS forum. | 18:11 |
| YoJimmy | Not much. | 18:11 |
| holstein | its just, again, one of those (arguably valid) choices.. | 18:11 |
| YoJimmy | Anyways, breakfast bell has rung. Good talk, mang. | 18:12 |
| holstein | definitely a pressure | 18:12 |
| holstein | i mean, pleasure ;) | 18:12 |
| holstein | cheers.. | 18:12 |
| YoJimmy | Slainte :> | 18:12 |
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| falktx | I see you guys like to talk :) | 18:23 |
| holstein | oh yeah.. the screen is filled with our combined love of FOSS ;) | 18:24 |
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| YoJimmy | Mostly I like to argue. So, falktx, what is the best out-of-the-box midi piano in your distro at the moment? | 20:09 |
| YoJimmy | Like if I wanna record a cover of an Elton John tune, say, and I wanna do it with synthesis or wavetable. What's the best option at hand? | 20:10 |
| falktx` | linuxsampler + salamander gig file is the best free option I think | 20:12 |
| falktx` | and pianoteq is the best commercial option | 20:12 |
| falktx` | see the top 2 links at http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/soundfont_collection | 20:14 |
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| YoJimmy | Tip 'o the hat, sir. Expect more noise to come. I'm especially enjoying the fact that I'm back on irc. I more or less quit the place somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2001, same time I stopped using usenet for anything but piracy. | 20:30 |
| YoJimmy | (leastways, I assume you're a sir.) | 20:30 |
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| YoJimmy | Also... commercial option?! Yecht. | 20:44 |
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| sirriffsalot | http://urort.p3.no/#!/Band/Utvei latest song published recently :) | 22:29 |
| LAbot | Title: NRK P3 Urrt (at urort.p3.no) | 22:29 |
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| FatalNIX | Hey guys | 23:26 |
| FatalNIX | I just compiled Carla on my box, but I get the following when I try to run it. What's going on? http://hastebin.com/imufajepek.vhdl | 23:26 |
| FatalNIX | looks like some python errors | 23:26 |
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